[Stoneman]

Yes, in a perfect world there'd be a handful of corner workers in every corner. You go and try to find enough people to safely cover a RACE track. And don't forget to mention to them that they won't be getting compensated for the incredibly hard work they will be required to perform. See how many hands go up...

[SVRACER01]

Originally posted by hessogood
and the person holding flags CANNOT do anything with them no matter the circumstances until they are instructed to do so by the person in charge.

bullshit!! you wave the flag first and call in second or while you are waving since that only takes one hand. even if a rider goes off the track and back on you throw that flag. you dont hurt anyone by throwing a yellow. the only flag you need permission to wave is the red.

[R7]

The flagger can hold a waving yellow and stationary yellow without being instructed. Red flags are ALWAYS at the order of control, Ambulance flag is a control call most of the time, and a debris flag is a corner captain call (usually only for one lap, then it becomes part of the course).

Any flagger that pays attention should not have to wait for someone to call for a waiving or stationary yellow flag. I always hear a call for that flag in turn 3 though (i've even flagged that one once) but that's a tough spot to see, and usually most of the crashes are out of your site.

One thing the flagger cannot not do at anytime when bikes are on course is leave the flag station for any reason

[SVRACER01]

yeah the debris flag stays out for a lap or 2 unless it moves (someone kicks it or something) then the flag goes back out

[R7]

Originally posted by SVRACER01
yeah the debris flag stays out for a lap or 2 unless it moves (someone kicks it or something) then the flag goes back out

yeah, I'm pretty sure knowone is gonna go out there and kick it or something just to move it

[trackdog]

Originally posted by R7
Once you corner work once or twice, you'll get the idea on how things work. Each flag station is possitioned where the flaggers back is facing the oncoming racing, and so they can see to the next flagger station. That is there control zone. The flagger in turn 5 should have been the one making the call on the radio, it's his/her job to watch from 5-7.

There's no excuse for a cornerworker sleeping or napping when there are bikes on the track, weather it happened or not, who knows.
A corner worker also has to rely on the flags being out before he/she enters a hot race track. They have every right to sit there in any situation and wait until it is safe for THEM to go out on the track. Even then, they are not obligated to run out there and chase a bike, help you up or off the track, or even make motions on the hot race track to warn riders.
These people volunteer their time, most of them a full day at a time for peanuts as far as pay goes. They're doing it because they like being involved for the mostpart so the last thing they want to hear or read somewhere is a comment about "that fucktard cornerworker".

[trackdog]

Originally posted by Paul_E_D
This is all fine and good discussion, but don't you think it would save a lot of time and BS to actually get trained as a marshall.

You're re-inventing the wheel here...

[trackdog]

Originally posted by hessogood
He is there to pick up riders and bikes, when the situation is safe for him to approach. If bikes are crashing into the impact zone he would not have been aproaching and dodging wrecks. He was in no possition to stop any bikes from crashing, or warn anyone.

Jay, have you cornerworked?

[a13x]

Pretty much everything Jay has said I'd probably type.


I see a flag waving at 5 and I immediately scan the gravel trap in the bowl, and past the apex heading to 7 to see where the 'situation' is as I crest the hill. You still have plenty of time to get your normal brake / turn in on.

[trackdog]

1 - exactly what are the responsibilities of the person in turn 6?
2 - if he wasn't sleeping, would he have been able to at least radio everyone about what was going on so the worker in turn 5 could wave the yellow or red?

Question 1 answered already. Very nicely I might add...Hesssooosmart! My compliments

2) IF, and I mean IF he had a radio, and one that worked to boot, he/she can radio T5 and call for a yellow.

He/she can also stop the race by calling Control( Sandy or Laura) working in the tower.

Any worker with a radio can stop the race if the situation calls for it.

People, they need bodies out there, plain and simple.

I don't believe some of the things that I am reading here!

Would you want a sucky corner worker out there or no corner worker out there...answer that question....I know for a fact that there are people that corner work that should not be out there, but who you gonna get?

Let me lay a guilt trip on some of you.
Maybe if some of you, that were either not racing at the time, were done for the day or did not have a race till much later, had taken upon yourself to volunteer to help make racing safer for you fellow racers, this may not have happened.


In a perfect world, there should be enough trained, experienced, and capable Marshalls at every corner.
And you should realize that every time you set foot out on that racetrack, you are taking a serious risk, even if all basis are covered.
Let's not forget the starting line incident last year. It can happen that fast and without warning.

Three years of corner working and last two years I corner worked before and after my races.
That is what I bring to the table.

[R7]

Originally posted by gmdboston
NETRA (New England Trail Riders Assc.) sactions Hare Scrambles and Enduros for adults and has many programs for the kids like the Pee Wee series, Nervous Novice rides, Junior Enduros and others. One of their rules for Championship contention is you must joinj a club and work that clubs event. For example my local club is based out of Wrentham and is the King Philip Trail Riders. To be considered for a year end award in the Enduro Series, I have to join the club, go to the meetings and work the Enduro the club puts on. NETRA gives you two throw aways, one of which is the work credit. You can race all year, win events, get the trophies, advance from C to B to A, collect contingency money, just like every body else, but if you do not work an event you will be dropped from the year end results. It makes for a sort of mandatory-volunteer system and promotes a real club atmosphere. There is a sort of unwritten friendly rivalry between the club members for the best finish too. The overall winner's club gets psudo bragging rights for the next year.

I talked with Don about it a few years ago, maybe it's time to revisit the issue. We always have problems getting enough workers so this would be a way to draft a few volunteers each week end. There are legal and logistical issues to resolve, but I always thought it would be a good idea to implement on some level. Back in the early 90's you used to have to work a day to advance out of what was the Novice class and move up to Junior.

Any thoughts?

This is a good idea if a way to make it actually work and be fair to everyone can be figured out. My guess is with a throw away weekend in LRRS, you'd have 10 workers per corner for the April or May weekends (typically shitty weather) and there will still be a shortage on the nice summer days, when the accidents seem to be worse by the way
It works great in the dirtbike clubs because there are several clubs and each typically has 1 or 2 events a year so things are pretty spread out, not to mention they are racing almost every weekend. With LRRS, it's one club with 8 (9?? )events, it's gonna be hard to make it work

[reiobard]

Ok, so since my post was the one that started the hostility I will explain myself. First of all if they need more people to cornerwork they should let someone know, i personally would have loved to be out there helping out. Anyone who has been at the track when Keira and i are there know we are always roaming around trying to help and i was not aware that cornerworking was an option. Also i never said that the cornerworker could have stopped anything from happening, i just beleive that if you do volunteer and make a choice to be out there at least try to do what you volunteered for. Jersey was #2 down and there was no way for the corner worker (even if alert) to stop what happened. Who he may have been able to help is the second group of bikes that were coming through 5 when this all happened. This was the group of bikes that hit Jersy got hit by. Maybe if he didn't have a radio or a radio that worked perhaps those should be available to all the workers on the track. even in corners with multiple workers one might see something a split second before the other and that could mean all the difference in the world. from the looks of it when the worker did get to the side and give a signal to the bikes was when they stopped going down. it was almost like the white suit on the side snapped them out of it and they slowed down to see what was going on.... Someone mentioned "why was Jersey sitting up. It was right about when this picture was taken after all the comotion from the first group and I am guessing he thought it was all over


one of the first bikes in the second group of bikes to go down was the one that hit him. The bike that successfully navigated the turn was in the back of the first group and i am guessing that he had enough time to react using the bikes in front of him as warning, the secong to last bike was close to making it but went down in the middle of 7. by the time the second group came the all had to figure it out again.

[hessogood]

Originally posted by trackdog

Jay, have you cornerworked?

Yup, I've cornerworked before I started racing in super heat or monsoons mostly. I've tried to get out there in between races or when I'm done for the day but I can never track anyone down to get me a helmet or put me in a spot.

[reiobard]

Where woul one go to sign up to volunteer for this?

[hessogood]

Every saturday there is training at 9:00 in the media center.

[R7]

Originally posted by reiobard
Where woul one go to sign up to volunteer for this?

Scales garage, next to the gas pumps. The first announcement of the day is a call begging for corner workers

[reiobard]

Originally posted by R7
Scales garage, next to the gas pumps. The first announcement of the day is a call begging for corner workers

I've never heard that call... I'll have to pay more attention next year. Might help if the speakers down our end worked consistantly. I'll look more into it when I head up next year

[TheIglu]

Originally posted by trackdog

I don't believe some of the things that I am reading here!

Would you ask the same questions as I and Rob are if you had never cornerworked before?

We obviously DON'T know about what happened and are trying to understand.

The only way I would have known any of this info was to either 1. ask and get flamed for it or 2. take the cornerworker class which isn't any option until next year.

Yes, we know they are volunteers. Yes, we appreciate them. No, we don't know what their jobs/powers/duties etc are. That's it. And when you think something is one way and it's not, you tend to make assumptions and get steamed especially when you think someone could have prevented an injury to a friend. I apoligize for jumping to conclusions.

[trackdog]

Originally posted by hessogood
Yup, I've corner worked before I started racing in super heat or monsoons mostly. I've tried to get out there in between races or when I'm done for the day but I can never track anyone down to get me a helmet or put me in a spot.

just wear you bicycle helmet and walk out to a corner that you think needs some help..or one that you need help in ....Sandy will remember you if you have worked before and are experienced.

Think outside the box...sometimes they are so busy the need educated folks like yourself to take a little initiative..IMO
I have done that in the past...just go out there..that aint't gonna say no.

[Johnny B]

Jay conducts a cornerworking school at 9:00 Saturday morning in the Media Center.
Show up at the Scales Garage at around 7:00 in the morning to see Sandy or Laura in person. Anytime after that I can give you the number and direct you to the phone in the Scales Garage. You can call Sandy up in the tower and get an assignment from her. If enough of you are available, you can set up a flexible schedule around your races.
Anything with sufficiently comfortable padding can pass muster as a helmet. I got a good one from Cosmo Joe Purshock during a vintage event. The chrome not only looks tres chic, it also reflects the sun and keeps the head cool. It's also pretty effective should any of you fall off of your beer coolers.

[Nikon]

Originally posted by Johnny B
Jay conducts a cornerworking school at 9:00 Saturday morning in the Media Center.
Show up at the Scales Garage at around 7:00 in the morning to see Sandy or Laura in person. Anytime after that I can give you the number and direct you to the phone in the Scales Garage. You can call Sandy up in the tower and get an assignment from her. If enough of you are available, you can set up a flexible schedule around your races.
Anything with sufficiently comfortable padding can pass muster as a helmet. I got a good one from Cosmo Joe Purshock during a vintage event. The chrome not only looks tres chic, it also reflects the sun and keeps the head cool. It's also pretty effective should any of you fall off of your beer coolers.

That's awesome





My opinion since I too saw the whole thing. There was ABSOLUTLY NOTHING the cornerworker could have done.

Even if there was a flag in 6 or this guy in 7 had one, people still move around the track. He was waving his arms trying to slow people even more but I'm sure the riders saw that there were people off the track. A red flag DOES NOT mean stop, it means continue, slowly and pit in. That's what the people were doing. There was no way for them to know that there was oil on the track. I believe the CW first move was towards the bikes to help get them outta the way, then he realized that it wasn't just a fuck up and crash but that there was something on the track and that's when he tried to slow traffic as best he could. Without a neon sign flasshing STOP comin outta 6 - nothing more coulda been done.
Was he slow to get there - yeah.
Are people slow to get there in other sections sometimes - yeah.
Were they short on people this past weekend - yeah.
If it was a less serious accident would we be discussing this right now - NO.

It was a bad situation all around. The flag in 7/8 wouldn't help because of where the oil was and a flag in 6 wouldn't help because people weren't going to stop when they saw it - they would have slowed - as people did and many would still have gone down - as they did.

I would also take into consideration that that turn doesn't see a ton of crashes (from my experience albeit limited from 3 years of going to the track and the bowl being in my top two spots to watch from). Most of the crashes I've seen in that area are in 6 - just like 1a doesn't see many either - they usually go down in 2. Again - my experience is limited to 3 years of watching for whattever that's worth.

All in all - I don't think that the guy could have done anything else.

[darkchylde51]

hey, so i started reading the thread, but have to run out so I didn't get a chance to read everything....so, forgive any redundancies.

i just thought I'd throw in what i know from cornerworking there for the last couple of years, and hopefully it'll sort out some questions, if anyone still has them.

1) the corner worker who is doing flags should NEVER be the one who is running to the bikes. the point of having the flagger is to protect everyone else that hasn't yet gone down (and other cornerworkers)- which would not happen if they're flapping around in the middle of the track.

2) as many of you can atttest to from losing places in races and having to re-grid in the pouring rain, or hot sun, Control is NEVER shy about pulling that red flag out, so please don't think they would ever hesitate in a questionable situation

3) the flagger in 5 is correct, and while I do agree that it is a long way from 5 to 8, it is also true that you can see all that coming in - volunteers are always an issue

4) I believe (if memory serves me correctly) that the series of events that day went as follows: a. guy's engine blows coming out of 6, b. a second guy goes down in 4, c. guy's bike in 6 gets called in, d. more people start going down in 6, e. a second guy goes down in 4...and then they called a red flag. This all happened in about 2-3 seconds.

Now, I don't totally remember, but I believe the corner worker said, "We've got a lot of oil up here." And while I can't attest to the competency of the person (I don't know who it is), I can say that at least half of the people out there are somehow tied to the racers. I think that they wouldn't be out there if they didn't care, because it's not for the money. There could have been a mistake - if there was, then it's worth addressing...and maybe the setup of the turn is too. I'd be happy to chat with Laura Cole about it (she's kind of the coordinator), or work on drafting a letter if someone that was in the bowl and saw it feels there could be an improvement in set up.

I'd just rather not throw blame around without a full understanding of what happened. All I know is, as soon as they called the red flag, Control told EVERYONE to go to that turn, and I've never heard them say that before. I ran from 2, and most people were there when I got there.

Like I said, I didn't read the whole thread, so I may be restating some stuff...but I just wanted to get my two cents in on the topic...

[a13x]

Great reply / post from Laura Cole as seen on NEAR LIST
----------


I truly value all suggestions and attempts to solve any and all issues with the cornerworkers. And I do ask that they please keep coming.

Unfortunately, we can not put another flagger passed the Turn 5 station because the entire area is a crash zone as well as not in the line of sight for the riders. I know it is a long way off. The absolute best solution (although sounding like a broken record) is MORE PEOPLE. Because at least then they could push/direct traffic. Unfortunately, the single biggest issue with the response to this pile up was there was only one person in Turn 6 and that is a lot of ground to watch.

I've heard the rumors, complaints, grips or whatever you want to call them about the worker being asleep in his car. I am simply going to say, that I was spoken to at the scene about this directly from a rider involved and immediately addressed the issue.

This is a numbers game we are playing. LRRS is the largest club and keeps growing in rider numbers while volunteerism and our ability to get workers is declining. More riders, less workers is a serious issue that I've been asking for you help with for a few years now. And I continue to ask for you help. Making working mandatory for riders keeps coming up - this is not going to happen. If so many of you are in favor of this, why don't I see you volunteering? Why do you have to wait until someone tells you you have to do it.

Cornerworking is not for everyone, but everyone needs corner workers. I have read some people's comments on some slow responses and I know that is in direct response to the lack of numbers out there. The ripple effect is that the experienced people are getting very burned out by not having enough other helpers and we are loosing them now as well. We need part time and full time workers to start coming consistently to gain experience to bring up the quality level. This is a serious issue that we all need to start pulling together to resolve.

If any of you are on any other boards or lists and suggestions come up, please forward them to me. If there are questions that I might be able to answer, let me know as well.

Laura

[legalspeed]

You can go to the scales garage, pick up a helmet (or in the med center) and dial 411 to get Sandy.

Tell her you are a rider requesting a corner.

If you are not a rider, you must take the cornerworker school. Riders know the flags from basic school and from competition.

LRRS makes announcements over the PA all day long and at every riders meeting. They also ask nicely at the beginning of the day and try to encourage people to take the US Marshal's class; I think it begins at 9am.

A cornerperson inattentive for a little while during the day is better than no corner coverage all day.

[Rick Lee]

Hell we had a list of all the racers on this board goin around a little while ago and it totaled at least 32. If each one of us took one day to cornerwork that would put 2 more cornerworkers out there every day of each weekend. I'll start us off. I got the very first day we go back to racing. If we all stop our bitching and pick a day to work the situation will improve. We could call it puttin your Jersey day in so we remember why we need more cornerworkers. It's for our own good in the end. Frankly i would feel better knowing you guys were lookin out for me and i'msure the same applies to yall.