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Nick Ienatsch on Braking in a corner.

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    Super Moderator OreoGaborio's Avatar
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    Nick Ienatsch on Braking in a corner.

    Read this on another forum... thought it was pretty well written (not entirely unexpected, coming from Nick)

    It covers a lotta stuff that many of us already know, but others may not. Pretty good read and it's not too crazy ridiculous long for those with ADOS (attention defecit ooh shiney)



    Braking by Nick Ienatsch

    "If you have to stop in a corner, one of two things will happen. One, you will stand the bike up and ride it off the shoulder and into whatever is over there. Or two, you will lay the bike down and slide off the shoulder of the road. Braking is done before, or after a corner. The best thing to do before taking a corner is to grind the thought "I'm going to turn this corner" into your mind."


    Hiya FZ1 lovers.

    I’ve stewed for two days about the above quote taken from another FZ1OA thread...and finally decided to launch this thread. In past years I would have just rolled my eyes and muttered, “Whatever”…but not anymore. I want to tell you that there are measureable, explainable, repeatable, do-able reasons that make great riders great. And brake usage is at the very tippity-top of these reasons. It’ll save your life, it’ll make you a champion. It will save and grow our sport.

    I’ll ask this one favor: Would you open your mind to what I’m about to write, then go out and mess around with it?

    To begin: Realize that great motorcycle riding is more subtle in its inputs than most of us imagine. I bet you are moving your hand too quickly with initial throttle and brakes. Moving your right foot too quickly with initial rear brake. The difference between a lap record and a highside is minute, almost-immeasureable differences in throttle and lean angle. The difference between hitting the Camaro in your lane and missing it by a foot is the little things a rider can do with speed control at lean angle. Brakes at lean angle. Brakes in a corner.

    Yes, a rider can brake in a corner. Yes. For sure. Guaranteed. I promise. Happens all the time. I do it on every ride, track or street. Yes, a rider can stop in a corner. In fact, any student who rides with the Yamaha Champions Riding School will tell you it’s possible. Complete stop, mid-corner…no drama. Newbies and experts alike.

    There are some interesting processes to this sport, mostly revolving around racing. But as I thought about this thread, putting numbers on each thought made more sense because explaining these concepts relies on busting some myths and refining your inputs. Some things must be ingrained…like #1 below.

    1)You never, ever, never stab at the brakes. Understand a tire’s grip this way: Front grip is divided between lean angle points and brake points, rear grip is lean angle points and acceleration points, lean angle points and brake points. Realize that the tire will take a great load, but it won’t take a sudden load…and so you practice this smooth loading at every moment in/on every vehicle. If you stab the brakes (um...or throttle...) in your pickup, you berate yourself because you know that the stab, at lean angle on your motorcycle (and bicycle, btw), will be a crash.

    2)Let’s examine tire grip. If you’re leaned over at 95% (95 points in my book Sport Riding Techniques and fastersafer.com) of the tires’ available grip, you still have 5% of that grip available for braking (or accelerating). But maybe you only have 3%!!! You find out because you always add braking “points” in a smooth, linear manner. As the front tire reaches its limit, it will squirm and warn you…if that limit is reached in a linear manner.

    It’s the grabbing of 30 points that hurts anyone leaned over more than 70 points. If you ride slowly with no lean angle, you will begin to believe that aggressiveness and grabbing the front brake lever is okay…and it is…until you carry more lean angle (or it’s raining, or you’re on a dirt road or your tire’s cold…pick your excuse). Do you have a new rider in your life? Get them thinking of never, ever, never grabbing the brakes. Throttle too…

    3)If you STAB the front brake at lean angle, one of two things will happen. If the grip is good, the fork will collapse and the bike will stand up and run wide. If the grip is not-so-good, the front tire will lock and slide. The italicized advice at the beginning was written by a rider who aggressively goes after the front brake lever. His bike always stands up or lowsides. He’s inputting brake force too aggressively, too quickly...he isn't smoothly loading the fork springs or loading the tire. He may not believe this, but the tire will handle the load he wants, but the load must be fed-in more smoothly…and his experience leads to written advice that will hurt/kill other riders. “Never touch the brakes at lean angle?” Wrong. “Never grab the brakes at lean angle?” Right!

    But what about the racers on TV who lose the front in the braking zone? Pay attention to when they lose grip. If it’s immediately, it’s because they stabbed the brake at lean angle. If it’s late in the braking zone, it’s because they finally exceeded 100 points of grip deep in the braking zone…if you’re adding lean angle, you’ve got to be “trailing off” the brakes as the tire nears its limit.

    4) Radius equals MPH. Realize that speed affects the bike’s radius at a given lean angle. If the corner is tighter than expected, continue to bring your speed down. What’s the best way to bring your speed down? Roll off the throttle and hope you slow down? Or roll off the throttle and squeeze on a little brake? Please don’t answer off the top of your head…answer after you’ve experimented in the real world.

    Do this: Ride in a circle in a parking lot at a given lean angle. That’s your radius. Run a circle or two and then slowly sneak on more throttle at the same lean angle and watch what your radius does. Now ride in the circle again, and roll off the throttle…at the same lean angle. You are learning Radius equals MPH. You are learning what throttle and off-throttle does to your radius through steering geometry changes and speed changes. You are learning something on your own, rather than asking for advice on subjects that affect your health and life. (You will also learn why I get so upset when new riders are told to push on the inside bar and pick up the throttle if they get in the corner too fast. Exactly the opposite of what the best riders do. But don’t believe me…try it.)

    Let me rant for a moment: Almost every bit of riding advice works when the pace is low and the grip is high. It’s when the corner tightens or the sleet falls or the lap record is within reach…then everything counts.

    “Get all your braking done before the turn,” is good riding advice. But what if you don’t? What if the corner goes the other way and is tighter and there’s gravel? It’s then that you don’t need advice, you need riding technique. Theory goes out the window and if you don’t perform the exact action, you will be lying in the dirt, or worse. Know that these techniques are not only understandable, but do-able by you. Yes you! I’m motivated to motivate you due to what I’ve seen working at Freddie’s school and now the Champ school…

    I’m telling you this: If you can smoothly, gently pick-up your front brake lever and load the tire, you can brake at any lean angle on and FZ1. Why? Because our footpegs drag before our tires lose grip when things are warm and dry. It might be only 3 points, but missing the bus bumper by a foot is still missing the bumper! If it’s raining, you simply take these same actions and reduce them…you can still mix lean angle and brake pressure, but with considerably less of each. Rainy and cold? Lower still, but still combine-able.

    5)So you’re into a right-hand corner and you must stop your bike for whatever reason. You close the throttle and sneak on the brakes lightly, balancing lean angle points against brake points. As you slow down, your radius continues to tighten. You don’t want to run off the inside of the corner, so you take away lean angle. What can you do with the brakes when you take away lean angle? Yes! Squeeze more. Stay with it and you will stop your bike mid-corner completely upright. No drama. But don’t just believe me…go prove it to yourself.

    6)Let’s examine the final sentence in the italicized quote. The best thing to do before taking a corner is to grind the thought "I'm going to turn this corner" into your mind.

    No, that’s not the best thing. It’s not the worst thing and I’m all for positive thinking, but we all need to see the difference between riding advice and riding techniques. This advice works until you enter a corner truly beyond your mental, physical or mechanical limits. I would change this to: The best thing to do before taking a corner is to scan with your eyes, use your brakes until you’re happy with your speed and direction, sneak open your throttle to maintain your chosen speed and radius, don’t accelerate until you can see your exit and can take away lean angle.

    7)Do you think I’m being over-dramatic by claiming this will save our sport? Are we crashing because we’re going too slowly in the corners or too fast? Yes, too fast. What component reduces speed? Brakes. What component calms your brain? Brakes. What component, when massaged skillfully, helps the bike turn? Brakes. If riders are being told that they can’t use the brakes at lean angle, you begin to see the reason for my drama level. When I have a new rider in my life, my third priority is to have them, “Turn into the corner with the brake-light on.”

    I’ve said it before: This is the only bike forum I’m a member of. I like it, I like the peeps, I like the info, I love the bike. Could we begin to change the information we pass along regarding brakes and lean angle? Could we control our sport by actually controlling our motorcycles? If we don’t control our sport, someone else will try. Closed throttle, no brakes is “out of the controls”. Get out there and master the brakes.
    Thanks, I feel better.

    Nick Ienatsch
    Yamaha Champions Riding School
    Fastersafer.com

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    Last edited by OreoGaborio; 09-07-13 at 08:11 AM.
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    Re: Nick Ienatsch on Braking in a corner.

    Good read! His book, "Sport Riding Techniques" was one of the first books I read when getting into motorcycling. It helped me countless times!

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    Re: Nick Ienatsch on Braking in a corner.

    don’t accelerate until you can see your exit and can take away lean angle.

    If people would do this, then Turn 4 wouldn't be called HIGHSIDE HILL.

    A little off topic from the main post, but if you apply this technique to all of your riding, it will save you a lot of pain and suffering.

    Get the bike turned on the way into the corner, while trail braking. Then reduce lean angle and add throttle as you leave the corner heading toward your exit point.

    If you ever find yourself adding throttle after the apex - and you are still doing bar inputs to finish turning - you're doing it wrong.

    (NOTE: I'm not talking about cracking the throttle, or giving a little maintenance throttle, which should be done just after trail braking and before the apex. I'm talking about applying throttle to power out of a corner)

    Another thing to keep in mind is that if you use the ratchet technique, you will often get away with adding throttle and turning - but that is not the ideal method. The ratchet technique is to find the maximum amount of throttle you can add AS YOU ARE REDUCING LEAN ANGLE.

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    Last edited by TTD; 09-07-13 at 09:24 AM.
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    Lifer Chippertheripper's Avatar
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    Re: Nick Ienatsch on Braking in a corner.

    Lots of words, but good ones.

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    Re: Nick Ienatsch on Braking in a corner.

    Words for a good reason here Chipper and I suspect you agree. The ideas here are hard to communicate as he is trying to sell the idea of "having" this idea, explain how it works, and why he cares. I had the privilege of Nick as an instructor at the Freddie Spencer School and even got to ride pillion around Las Vegas Motor Speedway with him at speed (still can't believe I literally couldn't feel the shifts).

    He has a quality about how he listens to people struggling with something and answers or asks questions back. He's like a laser guided German straight razor for bullshit. And I mean the kind of bullshit people spew about why they crashed in class and bullshit they don't actually think is bullshit. I got a lot of that course and had fun but the most impressive thing was how Nick taught. Very cool. Maybe it was a big deal for me as I've been a manager/director for years and a high performance driving instructor for even longer... and I'm not that good and always looking to improve my teaching/mentoring skills.

    I am a trail braker and believe in teaching this earlier in high performance driving and racing schools than some school will allow me to teach it. Some don't want this taught until people are advanced intermediates but I would/have taught it to first day students. Gives you a lot more options when you do miss a braking mark or whatever.

    Thanks for sharing Pete!

    Dave

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    Re: Nick Ienatsch on Braking in a corner.

    I wanna know how to pronounce his last name....

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    Re: Nick Ienatsch on Braking in a corner.

    In a tesh

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    Re: Nick Ienatsch on Braking in a corner.

    Ee-natch

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    Eatibus almost anythingus Marc R's Avatar
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    Re: Nick Ienatsch on Braking in a corner.

    Quote Originally Posted by OreoGaborio View Post
    ...
    As the front tire reaches its limit, it will squirm and warn you…if that limit is reached in a linear manner.
    ...
    If it’s raining, you simply take these same actions and reduce them…you can still mix lean angle and brake pressure, but with considerably less of each. Rainy and cold? Lower still, but still combine-able.
    When its warm and dry, the warning can be long enough to correct. When its cold/wet the warning seems brief, too brief. Maybe I need to try MotoGymkhana in the rain.

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    Last edited by Marc R; 09-07-13 at 01:15 PM. Reason: fixed typo

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    Re: Nick Ienatsch on Braking in a corner.


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    Re: Nick Ienatsch on Braking in a corner.

    Quote Originally Posted by jwm2k3 View Post
    I wanna know how to pronounce his last name....
    Quote Originally Posted by OreoGaborio View Post
    In a tesh
    Quote Originally Posted by Chippertheripper View Post
    Ee-natch

    The quest continues....

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    Re: Nick Ienatsch on Braking in a corner.

    Quote Originally Posted by jwm2k3 View Post
    The quest continues....

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    Re: Nick Ienatsch on Braking in a corner.

    Great read. Thanks Pete. Great add on tony. Thank you.

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    Re: Nick Ienatsch on Braking in a corner.

    Quote Originally Posted by 13 View Post
    Good read! His book, "Sport Riding Techniques" was one of the first books I read when getting into motorcycling. It helped me countless times!
    That book has probably saved my life more times than I can count. I recommend it to everyone.

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    "You don’t need to tell me the horror story about your uncle’s buddy who wiped out his chopper while drag racing at some hooligan rally. That just makes me wish I were talking to your uncle’s buddy instead of you. He sounds pretty cool."

    Originally Posted by JalopySiR
    BWAHAHAHAHAHA!! This time I was laughing at you. Sorry.

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    Lifer golden chicken's Avatar
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    Re: Nick Ienatsch on Braking in a corner.

    Odd that it's such a highly recommended book and I can never seem to find it at Barnes and Noble when I go. I always find Total Control and ToTW2, which I already have.

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    Re: Nick Ienatsch on Braking in a corner.

    I read his book. It's all BS. The best way to deal with an over-cooked corner is to lay it down.

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    Re: Nick Ienatsch on Braking in a corner.

    Quote Originally Posted by TTD View Post
    don’t accelerate until you can see your exit and can take away lean angle.

    If people would do this, then Turn 4 wouldn't be called HIGHSIDE HILL.

    A little off topic from the main post, but if you apply this technique to all of your riding, it will save you a lot of pain and suffering.

    Get the bike turned on the way into the corner, while trail braking. Then reduce lean angle and add throttle as you leave the corner heading toward your exit point.

    If you ever find yourself adding throttle after the apex - and you are still doing bar inputs to finish turning - you're doing it wrong.

    (NOTE: I'm not talking about cracking the throttle, or giving a little maintenance throttle, which should be done just after trail braking and before the apex. I'm talking about applying throttle to power out of a corner)

    Another thing to keep in mind is that if you use the ratchet technique, you will often get away with adding throttle and turning - but that is not the ideal method. The ratchet technique is to find the maximum amount of throttle you can add AS YOU ARE REDUCING LEAN ANGLE.
    In my experience THIS is the number one reason for crashing. Even thought the article is about brakes, he has identified the NUMBER ONE mistake I see riders make on track. If they do it this regularly on track I know they do it on the street as well.

    Let's take an example that we all understand. T2 at Loudon. I follow riders all the time who enter T2 fast, but a little gingerly, as if they are slightly afraid of losing traction right away. They pass the apex, hit the banking and NOW they turn the bike down to max lean angle while simultaneously screwing on the throttle. At this point my eyes are as big as pancakes as I await the highside. The thing is, in the dry, there is plenty of traction and positive camber there, and they get away with it.

    Moving on to T3/4, they do the same thing. Tip toe slightly across the bumps in 3, then as they are headed up the hill they turn the bike down and screw on the gas. This time, the track goes of camber and there is NOT enough traction to make this mistake. Boom!!! highside.

    When I point this out to riders who do it habitually, they look at me like I have 2 heads. Max lean should be achieved on the way towards the apex, not after one passes it. This has nothing to do with braking, but I suspect it is responsible for more crashes than braking errors...

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    Re: Nick Ienatsch on Braking in a corner.

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul_E_D View Post
    Max lean should be achieved on the way towards the apex, not after one passes it.
    Tell that to Mark Marquez

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    Re: Nick Ienatsch on Braking in a corner.

    Quote Originally Posted by CEO View Post
    Tell that to Mark Marquez
    Martians don't count in this equation.

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    "You don’t need to tell me the horror story about your uncle’s buddy who wiped out his chopper while drag racing at some hooligan rally. That just makes me wish I were talking to your uncle’s buddy instead of you. He sounds pretty cool."

    Originally Posted by JalopySiR
    BWAHAHAHAHAHA!! This time I was laughing at you. Sorry.

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    Re: Nick Ienatsch on Braking in a corner.

    I'm betting that he has a few electronic aids that allow him to carry that high lean angle a bit past the apex and into the acceleration zone, but even he has to start standing it up to lay down the power.

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    Re: Nick Ienatsch on Braking in a corner.

    Chicken if you remind me I'll let you borrow it.

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    "You don’t need to tell me the horror story about your uncle’s buddy who wiped out his chopper while drag racing at some hooligan rally. That just makes me wish I were talking to your uncle’s buddy instead of you. He sounds pretty cool."

    Originally Posted by JalopySiR
    BWAHAHAHAHAHA!! This time I was laughing at you. Sorry.

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    Re: Nick Ienatsch on Braking in a corner.

    Sweet. Thanks.

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    Re: Nick Ienatsch on Braking in a corner.

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul_E_D View Post
    T2 at Loudon. I follow riders all the time who enter T2 fast, but a little gingerly, as if they are slightly afraid of losing traction right away. They pass the apex, hit the banking and NOW they turn the bike down to max lean angle while simultaneously screwing on the throttle. At this point my eyes are as big as pancakes as I await the highside. The thing is, in the dry, there is plenty of traction and positive camber there, and they get away with it.
    Yup. And I have a PT bill to prove it.

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    Re: Nick Ienatsch on Braking in a corner.

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul_E_D View Post
    I'm betting that he has a few electronic aids that allow him to carry that high lean angle a bit past the apex and into the acceleration zone, but even he has to start standing it up to lay down the power.
    Show me video of these guys at max. lean PAST apex and I'll eat my words. Marquez, Stoner and Pedrosa are *known* for picking the bike up as fast as humanly possible after the apex and getting on the gas. They do not dilly dally and certainly don't carry lean when they don't have to, and after the apex (if it is indeed the apex of the line they are on) there's no reason not to begin dialing out the lean angle and dialing on the gas.

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    Last edited by scottieducati; 09-12-13 at 03:36 PM.

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  25. #25

    Re: Nick Ienatsch on Braking in a corner.

    Quote Originally Posted by CEO View Post
    Tell that to Mark Marquez
    I'm sure he already knows it!

    While it may appear he is defying the laws of physics - I'm pretty sure he isn't.

    While you can certainly achieve max lean angle after the true apex - that is not going to get you around a corner the fastest.

    The key point remains. You can either have max lean angle or max acceleration, but they are diverging points. As you approach max of one, you must approach min of the other.

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