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Track riding improvement plans

  1. #1
    Bizarro Zoolander Petorius's Avatar
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    Track riding improvement plans

    I have been wasting a lot of valuable track time “joy-riding” and not focusing on the things I need to do to improve. In an effort to progress more quickly, I am going to start writing plans of attack before track events. I thought it would be cool to have a thread for like-minded riders to share their plans/objectives, provide feedback, and reflect on events after the fact. If nobody else is into it then I will continue doing this offline. Racers welcome.

    TTD 7/28, NHMS

    Objective - 1:30 Lap time

    More corner speed
    Enter corners faster than feels “comfortable”
    Use more lean angle to compensate, don’t worry about blowing a few corners
    Quicker turn-in
    Delay turn-in
    Hard bar input/try pulling on outside bar
    Loose mid-corner, no subsequent inputs
    Use the knee as a gauge
    Turning left
    Drop head/shoulders, get the knee out and down
    Turning right
    Get ass off the seat more
    Change grip on throttle, hold like paint brush
    Drop head/shoulders, get the knee out and down
    LEAN IT OVER
    T2 and T12
    Support more weight on the outside peg, lift up a bit and let the seat come up to me

    Better drives out
    More shifting – figure out shifting between 2-3, 4-6, 7-9, 10-11
    Twist it – throttle open as soon as lean angle is reduced

    Nail down reference points
    1
    3
    4-6
    11

    Pass more
    Don’t hesitate to pass on the outside or late on the brakes
    2, 6 and 9 on the outside
    1 and 3 on the brakes
    11?

    Don’t get distracted by faster riders
    If someone is pulling away, use my plan, but be more precise and enter corners faster
    Look at reference points, not directly at the faster rider

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  2. #2
    Soul Rider Paul_E_D's Avatar
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    Re: Track riding improvement plans

    OK, that's a big list. You can't think about that every lap, or session, or day for that matter. Prioritize your list and simplify it into 3 things.

    1.Entry
    2. mid corner
    3.exit

    Work on one at a time

    Work on entry speed first. Brake at a consistent mark that does NOT stress you out. To raise you entry speed, brake normally for the first half of the zone, then ease out of the brakes as if you are already trail braking. Arrive at tip in faster and with 10% braking power on. tip it in quickly releasing the brake simultaneously. Fully off the brakes as you hit max lean angle with relaxed arms. Do this exercise until you entry speed is consistently higher. Then you can move your brake marker forward step by step without freaking out.

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  3. #3
    Bikeless in Blackstone The Snowman's Avatar
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    Re: Track riding improvement plans

    Pulling on the outside bar should be rewritten as pushing on the inside bar. A push can be done without grasping and staying loose. A pull requires you go grip the bar more. The tighter you grip, the more negative input you may be putting on the bars. Most low-side crashes happen as the result of too much bar input.

    In actuality. if you work on body position, leading with your head (while looking through corners), getting that inside shoulder down, you'll find that that you're automatically pushing on the inside bar, due to the position of your upper body.

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  4. #4
    Unsafe At Any Speeds Jim's Avatar
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    Re: Track riding improvement plans

    if you're only planning on learning NHMS, then make those reference marks you listed.
    other wise, you might want to say "find reference marks" that arent cones or taped X's on the pavement.

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  5. #5
    Bizarro Zoolander Petorius's Avatar
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    Re: Track riding improvement plans

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul_E_D View Post
    Work on entry speed first. Brake at a consistent mark that does NOT stress you out. To raise you entry speed, brake normally for the first half of the zone, then ease out of the brakes as if you are already trail braking. Arrive at tip in faster and with 10% braking power on. tip it in quickly releasing the brake simultaneously. Fully off the brakes as you hit max lean angle with relaxed arms. Do this exercise until you entry speed is consistently higher. Then you can move your brake marker forward step by step without freaking out.
    I like this idea a lot, definitely going to try it, thanks!

    Quote Originally Posted by The Snowman View Post
    Pulling on the outside bar should be rewritten as pushing on the inside bar. A push can be done without grasping and staying loose. A pull requires you go grip the bar more. The tighter you grip, the more negative input you may be putting on the bars. Most low-side crashes happen as the result of too much bar input.
    This one seems similar to the blipping debate. Ken seems to like it and calls it "power steering", but I've never actually tried it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim View Post
    if you're only planning on learning NHMS, then make those reference marks you listed.
    other wise, you might want to say "find reference marks" that arent cones or taped X's on the pavement.
    If I'm reading that right, you mean find fixed reference marks like a pavement seam or a number board instead of temporary ones like taped Xs and cones? Are the cones in place during races? If so, are they always in exactly the same spots? I definitely use the cones at TTDs going into 3 at NHMS.

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  6. #6
    Unsafe At Any Speeds Jim's Avatar
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    Re: Track riding improvement plans

    Quote Originally Posted by Petorius View Post
    If I'm reading that right, you mean find fixed reference marks like a pavement seam or a number board instead of temporary ones like taped Xs and cones? Are the cones in place during races? If so, are they always in exactly the same spots? I definitely use the cones at TTDs going into 3 at NHMS.
    i mean dont say you need to find markers in T3, T6, etc. if you go to NYST, Thompson, or NJMP, you'll need to just learn a track. Dont fixate on specific turns at NHMS, because that will only improve you at NHMS. learn how to read the track more specifically. and to answer your question, LRRS rounds have the cones like the track days you've attended to, but they'll never be in the same exact spot each time. you need to look for cracks, tar snakes, patches, etc for markers. all other race tracks dont use cones during race events.

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  7. #7

    Re: Track riding improvement plans

    Actually, cones are usually in same place because there are marks on the pavement to put them down. Having said that, using cones as a permanent marker is not ideal, as the cone can be missing or knocked out of place, etc.

    I absolutely use cones when they are present - but I make a new plan each day and adjust it according to what cones, marks, tape, etc is available that day.

    As for bar input to initiate steering - I find lately that I am pressing on both bars hard while braking hard - and then I ease up on the appropriate side as I begin trailbraking. So for a LEFT hand turn, as I begin my trailbraking phase, I am dropping my left shoulder and head and easing my pressure on the right bar - which makes sense because my body is pulling away from that bar. I keep the braking pressure on the left bar and that seems to make the bike turn pretty nice.

    Every corner is a little different so this is not happening in every corner though.

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  8. #8
    Senior Member Brendin87's Avatar
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    Re: Track riding improvement plans

    Quote Originally Posted by Petorius View Post



    If I'm reading that right, you mean find fixed reference marks like a pavement seam or a number board instead of temporary ones like taped Xs and cones? Are the cones in place during races? If so, are they always in exactly the same spots? I definitely use the cones at TTDs going into 3 at NHMS.
    What Jim is saying is, a cone or tape can be moved. Whether it be on purpose or by a rider. A lot of times you will find that people hit the cones in one way or another. So to answer your question, NO cones are never in the exact same spot. They may be close but never exact. Also the cones are up during races. But again not wise to use them as a reference point.

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  9. #9
    Lifer
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    Re: Track riding improvement plans

    PK had an interesting method of sliding forward in the saddle late in your braking and using this momentum to initiate the tip in. The idea is that it is advantageous to get weight over the front end while cornering, but keep it back while braking before that.

    I've had a hard time with setup as I want to be centered on the machine while braking. I watch the "fast guys" and they all seem to setup very late, contrary to what the TD staff teach. When PK described this technique, it suddenly occurred to me that I was only seeing their shoulders and legs move. Their core was setup, but both knees were gripping the tank. At tip in you see them drop the shoulder and open up the knee in one fluid movement.. but the core of the body stays fixed.

    My own goal is pretty simple: go faster!

    Seriously though. I tend to pick a single goal and stick with it for at least a half day. Next Monday's goal is to carry more corner speed and/or get more comfortable with leaning the bike further over.

    I'm also graduating from the idea of being waaaay off the bike. It's fun as hell, but I recognise that it isn't efficient and wears me out, causing me to loose focus and do stupid things I shouldn't. My secondary goal is to not hang so far off the bike just because I can.

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    Last edited by nhbubba; 07-23-14 at 04:35 PM.

  10. #10
    Senior Member Dave603's Avatar
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    Re: Track riding improvement plans

    my .02

    .01) relax and stay loose
    slow is smooth and smooth is fast

    .02) don't stress thinking about all of those things, instead turn them into instincts
    thinking takes time. time you are trying to eliminate.

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  11. #11
    Posting Freak Jewcati's Avatar
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    Re: Track riding improvement plans

    My plan

    1. Stop crashing

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  12. #12
    Soul Rider Paul_E_D's Avatar
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    Re: Track riding improvement plans

    Good plan Aria!!!

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    Paul_E_D


  13. #13
    Rookie Rada's Avatar
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    Re: Track riding improvement plans

    My plan...
    Roll Speed. Roll Speed Roll Speed....

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  14. #14
    Lifer
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    Re: Track riding improvement plans

    Quote Originally Posted by Dave603 View Post
    .01) relax and stay loose
    slow is smooth and smooth is fast

    .02) don't stress thinking about all of those things, instead turn them into instincts
    Geezus.. why didn't I think of that?! So simple.

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  15. #15
    Posting Freak Jewcati's Avatar
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    Re: Track riding improvement plans

    Quote Originally Posted by nhbubba View Post
    Geezus.. why didn't I think of that?! So simple.
    Beeee the biiiiikkkkkkeeeee......nananananananana (echoes off)

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  16. #16
    Super Moderator OreoGaborio's Avatar
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    Re: Track riding improvement plans

    Quote Originally Posted by Jewcati View Post
    My plan

    1. Stop crashing
    lol. Good plan. That was you in Turn 4, right? How ya feeling? Remember talking to me at all?

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  17. #17
    Soul Rider Paul_E_D's Avatar
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    Re: Track riding improvement plans

    Quote Originally Posted by nhbubba View Post
    Geezus.. why didn't I think of that?! So simple.
    It is and it isn't so simple. Some people can get reasonably quick riding by feel or "instinct", but usually, instincts are opposite of the best techniques, and so training yourself to be accurate, consistent, and doing the right things at the right times is where it's at. You will certainly be slower for a while, but in the long run, you will have a solid skillset with which you can continue to progress. Feel riders hit a wall, and that's it. Unless they are willing to start over, they aren't going to continue improving.

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  18. #18
    Lifer
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    Re: Track riding improvement plans

    ^^^ That's exactly what I was getting at. My post was just a much more snarky way of putting it.

    If I had instincts that let me ride "smooth and fast", I'd be there. I clearly don't. So how do I build those instincts. Something tells me attacking the problem incrementally and building those instincts (possibly sometimes called "skills") is probably the most efficient way to git 'er done. Attacking a problem incrementally requires a plan. And here we are.

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    Last edited by nhbubba; 07-24-14 at 07:03 AM.

  19. #19
    Senior Member jerseygirl's Avatar
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    Re: Track riding improvement plans

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul_E_D View Post
    It is and it isn't so simple. Some people can get reasonably quick riding by feel or "instinct", but usually, instincts are opposite of the best techniques, and so training yourself to be accurate, consistent, and doing the right things at the right times is where it's at. You will certainly be slower for a while, but in the long run, you will have a solid skillset with which you can continue to progress. Feel riders hit a wall, and that's it. Unless they are willing to start over, they aren't going to continue improving.
    I was a feel racer for years. I think it also has to do with me being female, but I definitely hit a wall. And it was hard to break my habits and become more calculated about my riding. Heck I am still struggling with it at times. The more it can be worked on, the better. A fellow racer has been taking detailed notes about what he has been working on.

    I will be there Monday if you want to chat Pete. I like that you are thinking about all that you can do. Talking things through with Gino on Monday will help guide you as to what to work on now. See you in a few days!

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  20. #20
    I've been here before. Mustang's Avatar
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    Re: Track riding improvement plans

    Quote Originally Posted by nhbubba View Post
    ^^^ That's exactly what I was getting at. My post was just a much more snarky way of putting it.

    If I had instincts that let me ride "smooth and fast", I'd be there. I clearly don't. So how do I build those instincts. Something tells me attacking the problem incrementally and building those instincts (possibly sometimes called "skills") is probably the most efficient way to git 'er done. Attacking a problem incrementally requires a plan. And here we are.
    You're exactly right. Unnatural instincts (by that I mean how to ride a motorcycle fast, vs. fight-or-flight) don't happen w/o practice.

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  21. #21
    Eatibus almost anythingus Marc R's Avatar
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    Re: Track riding improvement plans

    FWIW, the progress I've made at the track in the past two seasons came from identifying what prevented me from having good body position. Once you find a corner where you have a solid BP, all the good things happen more easily. Everything seemed OK with my BP during garage seminars with the staff, here are some of the issues I found riding the track:
    - NHMS T3 and T6: when I look too far ahead up a hill, my head rises and my inside arm starts to press down on the bar, slowing down the turn. Better RPs helped manage a better BP.
    - braking too hard: stiff arms, BP suffers. Popping up from a tucked position helps balance the braking forces and stay relaxed.
    - balls of the feet on the end of the pegs: this is amazing how it gets the toes/knee/hip pointed the right way and creates much needed space for a relaxed inside arm.
    - denial: I thought I was doing BP just fine years ago, and focused on other stuff, which made the learning process much slower.

    I got more, but I'll stop here.

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  22. #22
    Lifer Kurlon's Avatar
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    Re: Track riding improvement plans

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul_E_D View Post
    It is and it isn't so simple. Some people can get reasonably quick riding by feel or "instinct", but usually, instincts are opposite of the best techniques, and so training yourself to be accurate, consistent, and doing the right things at the right times is where it's at. You will certainly be slower for a while, but in the long run, you will have a solid skillset with which you can continue to progress. Feel riders hit a wall, and that's it. Unless they are willing to start over, they aren't going to continue improving.
    I'm there! I have reference points, etc, but once I'm rolling I revert right back to rote memory and feel, and it's making forward progress a PITA.

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  23. #23
    Bizarro Zoolander Petorius's Avatar
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    Re: Track riding improvement plans

    Quote Originally Posted by nhbubba View Post
    I'm also graduating from the idea of being waaaay off the bike. It's fun as hell, but I recognise that it isn't efficient and wears me out, causing me to loose focus and do stupid things I shouldn't. My secondary goal is to not hang so far off the bike just because I can.
    I was getting way off the bike to avoid dragging pegs when I had the handlebar and stock footrests (see avatar). I made an effort to stop doing that on my new setup, now I'm back to not dragging knee but I find myself able to finish every session during 2 day events. I feel like it does save a lot of energy. Hip tightness is now limiting my endurance more than anything else.

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul_E_D View Post
    Work on entry speed first. Brake at a consistent mark that does NOT stress you out. To raise you entry speed, brake normally for the first half of the zone, then ease out of the brakes as if you are already trail braking. Arrive at tip in faster and with 10% braking power on. tip it in quickly releasing the brake simultaneously. Fully off the brakes as you hit max lean angle with relaxed arms. Do this exercise until you entry speed is consistently higher. Then you can move your brake marker forward step by step without freaking out.
    Paul, would you recommend doing this exercise for every corner, just a few, or just one at time? I'm thinking I can probably recover to near 100% focus before 1, 3, 6, and 11 at NHMS if thats the only thing I'm working on in a given session.

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  24. #24
    Soul Rider Paul_E_D's Avatar
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    Re: Track riding improvement plans

    I would say, if you just work on this one thing, start with T1 and T6 and give yourself the whole rest of the lap to ride as normal. Add in T3 and 11 later as those are a bit tougher and have less runoff should you need to go wide.

    BTW, if you need to go wide, just do so. Don not try to recover the line. That's when you will go down.

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  25. #25
    I've been here before. Mustang's Avatar
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    Re: Track riding improvement plans

    Quote Originally Posted by Kurlon View Post
    I'm there! I have reference points, etc, but once I'm rolling I revert right back to rote memory and feel, and it's making forward progress a PITA.
    Yell to yourself inside your helmet. Either "reference points!" or actually yell out the RP you need to be looking at, then the next, the next.

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    Bill Cool --- NEMRR EX #8 --- 2023 NEMRR GTO Champion, 2020-21 LRRS LWSS Champion --- RSP Racing / TTD / MTAG-Pirelli / Woodcraft / Sportbike Track Gear / Seacoast Sport Cycle

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