2015 Track Days Postings

[nhbubba]

I just did my first race weekend. Saturday was light rain and they cut the sprints to 6-laps each. I found that okay. Sunday came and the 8-lap regular sized sprints almost kicked my ass. Without someone in front of me, I faded fast. If I weren't used to longer track day sessions, that would have been 100x worse.

I'm also coming around on the tire warmer things. I'm one of the tight ass cheapskates likely being talked about here. I had to use warmers for races. I now wish I'd bought them and practiced using them at track days long ago. Especially at NHMS (where power is available and free) why not?!

Although half the reason for beginner and intermediate TD riders to not "hit it" right out of the gate is to get the rider up to temp, not necessarily the tires or machine.
But then having hot tires under you seems like a no-brainer. I'm not seeing the downside.

I think the prevailing guidance on this subject from TD providers is well intentioned, but less helpful for intermediates and advanced riders.

[jasnmar]

I think the prevailing guidance on this subject from TD providers is well intentioned, but less helpful for intermediates and advanced riders.

Fair argument, but also consider how many of the control riders / instructors are running warmers at a track day. They are reasonably advanced riders (well, mostly ).

[TheIglu]

More available traction is never a bad thing. I don't see any downsides, nor do I see the benefit to any trackday orgs discouraging using warmers.

[nhbubba]

The difference-especially vs an intermediate rider-is they have the experience to know what the tire can take. They know what 80% for two laps are. And they aren't there to maximize their time.
I know I've pitted out a dozen times without a fookin' clue if I'm riding at 80% or not. Net effect is I give it 40% and waste time OR I give it 90% without realizing it, then add a mistake to the mix and eat shit.

The irony is that I need the safety factor less as I gain experience.

If you have any interest in racing, becoming familiar with using warmers is worthwhile.

And the downside for staff is that they have customers to .. service .. where as normal paying td plebes only have to take care of their own business.

Newer track riders are a totally different subject. Warmers are an extra distraction people new to the track do not need.

[Philkinson]

More available traction is never a bad thing. I don't see any downsides, nor do I see the benefit to any trackday orgs discouraging using warmers.

X2
Been using them for two years now, its awesome being able to go hard right out of the box.

[OreoGaborio]

the common mentality among trackday providers is "don't use warmers..."

Naw

"they aren't needed".

Yeh

I have no problem with people running warmers whatsoever... the only thing I have a problem with is when people allow the lack of warmers to be a prohibiting factor.

More available traction is never a bad thing. I don't see any downsides, nor do I see the benefit to any trackday orgs discouraging using warmers.

See above problem. Warmers have become so widely used that many WOULD-BE track riders think they're a necessary item for track riding when they're not. I see/hear people asking about them alllll the time in threads, etc asking about getting into track days.


I don't run warmers. Why? They're not a priority for me. I generally don't have time to bother with them and I don't really need them.... The tires I run are awfully grippy even when cool and they get up to temp quickly. If I were on Dunlops that might be a different story. Rode KB's bike and almost crashed on pit-out. Those things were bricks.

[TheIglu]

No, as long as they realize they are required to spend 1/3-1/4 of their total laps for the day warming up their tires properly.


With the amount of $$$$$$$ people drop on overly fast motorcycles/mods/etc that they can't touch the potential of, having a cheap set of warmers seems like a no brainer in regards to eliminating cold tire crashes. How many cold tire crashes do you guys see on average per trackday? I usually see at least one or two.

[OreoGaborio]

And that's why I've never heard anybody tell anyone "DON'T USE WARMERS!"

Again, only time I have a problem with warmers is when it becomes a prohibiting factor for a rider looking to attend an event (anywhere with anyone... not just TTD)

I do 1, maybe 2 warm up laps before I start rearlly bookin... so... certainly not upwards of a THIRD of my day. 5% of my day? maybe? And it's not like I'm having a shitty time or anything while I'm doin that, either. Is gradually getting up to speed really such a horrible experience?

Someone wants to use em? Go ahead & use em. No one's stoppin anyone from plugging in.

[caloots]

I don't have warmers but intend to get some eventually.. I do 2 warm-up laps every session do mostly to cold tire fear.. that being said, I run bt-016 and they seem to have impressive cold grip or maybe it seems that way cuz I'm slow.. regardless of being able to run hot Laps , tire warmers are good for the tires as I understand it.. it keeps them from going through heat cycles

[Chippertheripper]

From the guy who rides dirt bikes on the pavement... haha!

Riding a 600/750/1000 etc, and REALLY riding it, on the track for 15 minutes is a lot of work. I could ride my motard all day long, but racing my 600 for 8 laps was about 11 minutes and I was totally smoked and sweating balls

Remember when I ran the Buell? How about my SV? Or my Kawi 650? Or when I was control riding doing triple 20min sessions?
I also run a dirty through the woods, at race pace, for sometimes 6 HOURS.
20min is totally doable. If you can't do it, think about poker or some other (bound to be) expensive hobby. Maybe smoking exotic cigars and single malts?

[FirstDuc-1098]

...Maybe smoking exotic cigars and single malts?

Hmm... I think I put this up in the off season hobbies thread, sounds good to me

[TheIglu]

And that's why I've never heard anybody tell anyone "DON'T USE WARMERS!"

Again, only time I have a problem with warmers is when it becomes a prohibiting factor for a rider looking to attend an event (anywhere with anyone... not just TTD)

I do 1, maybe 2 warm up laps before I start rearlly bookin... so... certainly not upwards of a THIRD of my day. 5% of my day? maybe? And it's not like I'm having a shitty time or anything while I'm doin that, either. Is gradually getting up to speed really such a horrible experience?

Someone wants to use em? Go ahead & use em. No one's stoppin anyone from plugging in.

Maybe I'm remembering incorrectly, but there was a time where I kept getting the "those are unnecessary" from trackday people. Then I tried it without and promptly crashed on pit out lap in turn 3 at 15 mph


So yes, I'm probably over-sensitive to it for anything but rousing positive reinforcement. Now that I think of it, I haven't heard anything negative about tire warmers in a long time.

[TheIglu]

Remember when I ran the Buell? How about my SV? Or my Kawi 650? Or when I was control riding doing triple 20min sessions?
I also run a dirty through the woods, at race pace, for sometimes 6 HOURS.
20min is totally doable. If you can't do it, think about poker or some other (bound to be) expensive hobby. Maybe smoking exotic cigars and single malts?

15 minutes is way too much when you run FLAT OUT, chip.

[tls25rs]

promptly crashed on pit out lap in turn 3 at 15 mph

'Twas an interesting ride to watch from right off your back tire too!

[Chippertheripper]

I can usually only run flahtout for 2-3 minutes at a whack. Then I need time to recover. And cuddle.

But cue the "you're only supposed to run at 75-80% at a td" response. Which makes only being able to do 15m even more ridiculous.

[caboteria]

Friends of mine tell me when I hit age 60 I'll appreciate 15 minute sessions.

some friends tell me when I hit age 60 I will appreciate 15 minute sessions more...

I'm still 10 years away from 60 and my memory is starting to go, too.

[caloots]

Starting...?
I lost memory 15 years ago and I'll be the big 40 this month

[TTD]

Pete said it already, but we never say don't use warmers - only say there are lots of better things for newbies to worry about.

And learning how to go out on cold tires and warm them up is something everyone should learn how to do.

It's a beautiful thing when you "feel" your tire come in. Too many riders just thing of their tires as lifeless black rings.

Learn how a carcass moves and deforms when you are braking/cornering/accelerating. Learn how the tread deforms into the pavement. When you are more in tune with your tires, then when you are pushing the limit and you feel a tire slide or wiggle - you get a mental picture of what the tire is doing and can correct (or ignore).

When I am braking hard, I can visualize my front tire squatting a bit when I let off the gas and "pre brake". I imagine the contact patch growing and my tire tread deforming into all the nooks and crannies of the pavement as I apply heavier braking. With this vision in mind, I am comfortable braking harder as my tire is talking to me and saying, "I got this"!

For advanced riders looking for max laps at full speed, I get it the allure of warmers.

For slower and newer riders, they are better off using those warm up laps every session to learn about their tires and traction management - while getting their head into the session and working on the "plan" for that session. Maybe a certain skill (trailbraking?) Maybe a certain corner is giving them trouble? etc.

[maxim_X]

On session length. AM GT racing is pretty intense at a competitive pace. But, aside from wanting some water and wishing for a checkered flag you pace doesn't really slow and there are very few crashes near then end of the race. That's what? 25 minutes. But it's nothing compared with a competitive offroad event. I'm down with the longer sessions, get in the groove and cut some hot laps.

[TTD]

Is everyone that is looking for longer sessions down for more money... or more people on the track?

[Chippertheripper]

This is nesr. Of course not.

[tls25rs]

Is everyone that is looking for longer sessions down for more money... or more people on the track?

I'm going to go out on a limb and say that most would prefer not to see more money involved so that being said more people on track would be the winner.

[Mgiossi]

im going to go with philkinson on this, I really like the 4 group, 15 min sessions. i like that the groups especially blue,black are smaller, and at the beginning of a track day sure i could handle and have fun with 20 min sessions but i know that even with 15 min sessions the last two of the day im beat and usually pitting in early any way. I'm for KEEP the 15 min sessions!

[PainfullySlow]

I would much rather see four 15 minute sessions than three 20 minute ones. Less traffic means higher quality laps. I would rather get 7 laps where I can work on the areas that I would like to work on than 10 laps of being stuck in lap traffic every other turn. Other than that, after 25 minute endurance races, every session feels short by comparison :-p

As for warmers, I run them every single time I go out on the track. Not because I need them but because it is a part of my mental process. Twice now I have crashed at race weekends due to lack of warmers so now they go on the tires even if I am not pushing at all. It is simply a peace of mind thing.

[Woodcraft]

I would much rather see four 15 minute sessions than three 20 minute ones. Less traffic means higher quality laps. I would rather get 7 laps where I can work on the areas that I would like to work on than 10 laps of being stuck in lap traffic every other turn. Other than that, after 25 minute endurance races, every session feels short by comparison :-p

As for warmers, I run them every single time I go out on the track. Not because I need them but because it is a part of my mental process. Twice now I have crashed at race weekends due to lack of warmers so now they go on the tires even if I am not pushing at all. It is simply a peace of mind thing.

Have to agree on both points. I'll take 5 less minutes at a lower track density every time....odds go way up for "quality laps". The best sessions are always at the end of the day when other people are tired and skipping out, pulling in early, etc. Racers know that the last two laps of every practice are always the clearest.

Tire warmers - although not mandatory on track day/street tires, I always use them when on decent rubber. Why waste 2-3 laps every session getting tires up to temp? On the Dunlop Q3's (our choice for a track day tire), Dunlop will tell you that you don't need warmers....and I guess I agree as they don't have that "riding on hockey pucks" feel that cold race tires do. However, if I was a track day guy and wanted to hit the ground running, I'd set my warmers on "warm" (not the normal hot setting) just to maximize my time and have peace of mind - especially on cooler days.