2013 Honda 500 series and a "NEW" 600RR

[Lucas]

The announcement said that the 500 class will be replaced with a 250/300 class.

This is a definite? In 2013 or 2014?

[backinthesaddle]

New CBR doesn't seem all that new to me. Now kawi and their 2013 636 that's another story.

[csmutty]

This is a definite? In 2013 or 2014?

PM Woodcraft.

[RocketPunch]

New CBR doesn't seem all that new to me. Now kawi and their 2013 636 that's another story.

Because in PR speak "NEW" =/= "ALL NEW"

[Kurlon]

The announcement said that the 500 class will be replaced with a 250/300 class.

A 250/300 class == 300 class, no point even trying with a 250 if they let the bigger machine in.

[gregp]

I like these new 500's, even if they appear to be not much more than more modern looking EX500's. The 3rd generation Ninja 250 was much the same - the older one was a bit faster, but the newer one looked more modern.
FWIW - I loved my EX500, and could see myself being quite happy with one of these new Honda's.

[Rossco]

Honda may have hit the ugly tree on the 600RR. But they more then made up for it with the CB1100, Goldwing F6B, and the 500 series.

[xxaarraa]

I guess I'm in the minority in thinking the new RR is one fugly-ass bike. As for leaded gas, we'd all be better off if we were still running it... but regardless, the halogen lights I would imagine offer equal or superior lighting at a fraction of the weight (and a simpler, more reliable design). Honda's engineering is on another level compared with just about every other manufacturer, I highly doubt they would take a step backwards in terms of function (cost reduction also comes to mind?), so just think that money saved bought more useful progress. Their styling however, has gone backwards. A company that used to make some of the most timeless designs has gone cartoon and it just doesn't suit my tastes.

Have to disagree on the halogen lights Scottie. There is a reason the entire industry has moved on to projectors. If halogens were "equal or superior" we would still be running them on cars, not just on motorcycles.

Agree on styling. Honda's design has been in a rut for years and years.

[scottieducati]

My point was more of a weight issue, projectors are significantly heavier. Not an issue on cars, or touring bikes or whatever, but definitely in a 600cc supersport bike. And besides, LED is the next thing coming in lighting anyway, projectors are so overrated.

[Eddie]

Anyone know what the MSRP on the 13 600rr is/will be?

[Danz19899]

Have to disagree on the halogen lights Scottie. There is a reason the entire industry has moved on to projectors. If halogens were "equal or superior" we would still be running them on cars, not just on motorcycles.

Agree on styling. Honda's design has been in a rut for years and years.

Its a preference thing. Honestly i started riding on a zzr-600 with 2 halogens on the front and it was great could see everything and loved it.
now i'm on an 09 zx6r and have projectors and hate riding with them at night, if i'm going straight they are fine but when i tip into a corner the projector cut off line makes it so i cant see a fucking thing looking through the corner


However i want the cb500f soooooo bad

might have an 09 zx6r for sale this winter to get one

[Eddie]

The CB500F kinda resembles the Honda Hornet (600f)

[SVRACER01]

A 250/300 class == 300 class, no point even trying with a 250 if they let the bigger machine in.

not if different rules are implicated. if the 300 cant have any motor work but the 250 can, it may be a wash. kinda like riding a 250 4stroke in a 125 class

[Kurlon]

not if different rules are implicated. if the 300 cant have any motor work but the 250 can, it may be a wash. kinda like riding a 250 4stroke in a 125 class

We've already got fights breaking out over rules like that in the 250 class elsewhere. Ninjas have to be box stock, CBRs have no limits on motor/airbox mods because of CCS' single cylinder blind spot. In the end you still end up with one bike being dominant, no-one bothers with the others so just make it a one bike class from the start?

[gregp]

What is the "CCS' single cylinder blind spot"?

[Lucas]

We've already got fights breaking out over rules like that in the 250 class elsewhere. Ninjas have to be box stock, CBRs have no limits on motor/airbox mods because of CCS' single cylinder blind spot. In the end you still end up with one bike being dominant, no-one bothers with the others so just make it a one bike class from the start?

Sounds good to me.

[Paul_E_D]

What is the "CCS' single cylinder blind spot"?

Singles are allowed unlimited mods. I don't think that ever really ends up trumping any multi except in isolated examples.

[Kurlon]

What is the "CCS' single cylinder blind spot"?

If you look at the rules, you'll find that single cylinder engined bikes get to ignore most restrictions placed on other bikes in the class.

For example, lets look at SuperSport rules: Premise is pretty simple, you can change the exhaust and jetting... aaaaaaand that's about it for performance mods.

Now, if you're rocking a single cylinder engine... lets see what you're allowed to do: Anything you want to the engine as long as you don't exceed displacement limits for the class. BTW, singles have no displacement limits in SuperSport. Note, this also applies to pre 1999 twins with less than 4v per cylinder, and pre 94 twins, one of the few places it's not just the singles getting the bypass. These machines are also allowed to run any carb setup they want. Interestingly, this is one class that does NOT waive the requirement that machines be production street machines as a base, so unless your motard came with a street legal MSO from the MFG, it's not legal.

Superbike: Singles are exempt from having to use a production street legal frame and matching engine cases. This is how the motards sneak in, the sneaky bastards. This also opens up a fun loophole around the limitation on sleeving down motors to meet a smaller class. If you start with a Duc 1198 (Unlimited Superbike) and lop a cylinder off, now it's a single, and allowed to run a smaller class. Welcome to UltraLight.

Thunderbike: Gotta be a street production frame and engine, unless it's a single in which case anything goes.

Sportsman (LRRS specific class): LRRS actually put some limits on singles in this class, depending on displacement you may be forced to run a street production frame, 'GP' machines are specifically excluded.

The idea is to give singles a fighting chance, but I think in some cases they're given too much wiggle room in the rule book. Take ULSB for example, the idea is production street machines modded all to hell, but instead it's a Motard class because singles don't have to be based on street machinery. Looking at other orgs, I don't see the same full pass granted to singles that CCS does.

[TheIglu]

From: http://www.fasterandfaster.net/

"The Honda CB500X shares its chassis, suspension and liquid-cooled, fuel-injected, DOHC parallel-twin with its CB500F and CBR500R cousins. With 47 horsepower and 43Nm of torque, and 195kg kerb weight, the CB500X is probably a mild-mannered machine, but one that’s refined and fuel-efficient, with Honda claiming 27km/l for the bike."
1. 47 hp
2. 430 lbs
3. $4,500 (naked), $5,000 (faired), $?,??? (X)

It is interesting that the NC700X is said to have only 48 hp (DCT version - regular version something like 51?).

Isn't the EX rated at 59hp? ~50hp at the real wheel?

440lbs wet? (Some say 420)

I was figuring them to do a lot better given the ancient EX and it's numbers.....

[Kurlon]

AFAIK the 47hp number is the restricted output for the EU to meet tiering requirements. Outside the EU they're 54hp. This is similar to the CBR250R with two different output ratings depending on point of assembly, which is based on the intended destination. Fully gassed up and good to go the 500R is 425lbs, the nakie version is 420lbs.

[SVRACER01]

If you look at the rules, you'll find that single cylinder engined bikes get to ignore most restrictions placed on other bikes in the class.

For example, lets look at SuperSport rules: Premise is pretty simple, you can change the exhaust and jetting... aaaaaaand that's about it for performance mods.

Now, if you're rocking a single cylinder engine... lets see what you're allowed to do: Anything you want to the engine as long as you don't exceed displacement limits for the class. BTW, singles have no displacement limits in SuperSport. Note, this also applies to pre 1999 twins with less than 4v per cylinder, and pre 94 twins, one of the few places it's not just the singles getting the bypass. These machines are also allowed to run any carb setup they want. Interestingly, this is one class that does NOT waive the requirement that machines be production street machines as a base, so unless your motard came with a street legal MSO from the MFG, it's not legal.

Superbike: Singles are exempt from having to use a production street legal frame and matching engine cases. This is how the motards sneak in, the sneaky bastards. This also opens up a fun loophole around the limitation on sleeving down motors to meet a smaller class. If you start with a Duc 1198 (Unlimited Superbike) and lop a cylinder off, now it's a single, and allowed to run a smaller class. Welcome to UltraLight.

Thunderbike: Gotta be a street production frame and engine, unless it's a single in which case anything goes.

Sportsman (LRRS specific class): LRRS actually put some limits on singles in this class, depending on displacement you may be forced to run a street production frame, 'GP' machines are specifically excluded.

The idea is to give singles a fighting chance, but I think in some cases they're given too much wiggle room in the rule book. Take ULSB for example, the idea is production street machines modded all to hell, but instead it's a Motard class because singles don't have to be based on street machinery. Looking at other orgs, I don't see the same full pass granted to singles that CCS does.

air cooled motors get that "blind spot" as well.

[Kurlon]

air cooled motors get that "blind spot" as well.

Nowhere near as much, generally they're just allowed more displacement. There are only a couple spots where air cooled mills past a certain age are allowed more freedom than just displacement IIRC.

[TheIglu]

AFAIK the 47hp number is the restricted output for the EU to meet tiering requirements. Outside the EU they're 54hp. This is similar to the CBR250R with two different output ratings depending on point of assembly, which is based on the intended destination. Fully gassed up and good to go the 500R is 425lbs, the nakie version is 420lbs.

So it is basically a twin to the EX500. Lame.

[Kurlon]

So it is basically a twin to the EX500. Lame.

Slightly lighter, slightly hotter, and a frame that isn't made out of spaghetti with proper wheel sizes for modern rubber. AKA perfect for the category. Fills a hole in Honda's lineup nicely.

[gregp]

So it is basically a twin to the EX500. Lame.

I agree that they are basically EX500 "Twins", but I hardly think that is lame. With the demise of the EX, Honda saw an opening, and took it. I suspect that they get better fuel mileage, and, quite possibly, handle better. That they offer 3 versions of the same bike tells me that they see this as a growing segment of the motorcycle industry.
If the 500X has the same false fuel tank "trunk" (there has been no mention of that feature on the 500), I would certainly be looking to buy one.
As they are, I am looking at a CRF250L to replace my long-in-tooth KDX200 and Ninja 250, and either the 500X, the 700X, or maybe even an F6B to replace my DR650, as my street bike.