clutchless DOWNshifting

[OreoGaborio]

aight, i'm a little more familiar w/ bike tranny's now & understand clutchless upshifting etc, but i just had some guy give me some sarcastic bullshit cuz i said that you should always use the clutch when downshifting & he said you don't have to....

Yup, you're wrong about that. My trnny is just fine. Better go tell Will Eikenberry, too, he's only the absolute track record holder at SOW, and after the grid start, doesn't touch the clutch for the entire remainder of the race. And maybe let Code in on this too....this will come as news to him also...

You see, while it may SEEM inperative from your perspective, things aren't alwaus what they seem.

the least he could do is proofread

so.... is he right? cuz everyone i talked to at track days etc has told me clutchless upshifts are just fine, but always use the clutch for downshifts.

personally, i'd think that unless you were crazy fuckin good at it, you shouldn't be doin that in a braking zone goin into a corner as it's just one more thing that'll disrupt the balance of your bike as it momentarily drags the tire, which it's done the few times i've tried it.

so what's the deal? edjumakate me

[Awesome]

a lot of the time I don't use the clutch to downshift. Depends on your speed, how high the engine is reved and how many gears you need to drop. If you can do it smooth without the clutch, I say don't use it. That guy sounds like an asshole, unless you were argueing with him.

I still need to work on my style myself though and find if I should or shouldn't be using engine brake. I missed a downshift or two on the track. One coming into turn 3. Good thing I don't get panic reactions and was able to just slide the rear around and get it together. I saw a look of horror in some little kids face standing by the fence. I think he even covered his eyes. lol

[odduc]

Clutchless downshifting can be used effectively with a slipper clutch. However, I think that if you don't have a slipper clutch, you better know what the hell you're doing. Missing a downshift or slamming down a gear or two without matching RPMs is a recipe for highside...Take it from someone who knows firsthand. Turn 3 at NHIS and I came in too hot and went from 3rd to 2nd before the RPMs were properly matched to wheel speed, so the rear tire regained traction after releasing the clutch too quickly and......SLAM, CRASH, SNAPPING BONES, TUMBLING MOTORCYCLE..........OUCH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

So, personally, I would not reccommend clutchless downshifting 'cause it hurts......

[RandyO]

I could never see the advantage to clutchless shifting, its not like you have to pull the clutch all the way in.

with constant mesh trannys like bikes have all you have to do is unload the pressure on the gears to shift, I do that with a tap on the clutch lever, up or down. completly disengage if I am downshifting for engine braking

when I downshift, I don't blip to match revs, I slip clutch, much smoother and easier for me. and I think I have smoothness figured out pretty good, I ride on snow & ice, and wear my front sprocket down till all the teeth are gone

[ancosta]

Not to threadjack but are slipper clutches the realm of seasoned racers on high end hardware? Or are they something the recreational track day reservist can benefit from?

[odduc]

Generally speaking, slipper clutches are for racing. It's not as if too many of us can ride on the street hard enough to warrant a slipper clutch.

[oreo_n2]

i had one on my aprilia and it scared the hell outta me when it would re-grab, so i tend to use the clutch for downshifting.

[gixxer6]

Originally posted by lrrs167
Clutchless downshifting can be used effectively with a slipper clutch. However, I think that if you don't have a slipper clutch, you better know what the hell you're doing. Missing a downshift or slamming down a gear or two without matching RPMs is a recipe for highside...Take it from someone who knows firsthand. Turn 3 at NHIS and I came in too hot and went from 3rd to 2nd before the RPMs were properly matched to wheel speed, so the rear tire regained traction after releasing the clutch too quickly and......SLAM, CRASH, SNAPPING BONES, TUMBLING MOTORCYCLE..........OUCH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

So, personally, I would not reccommend clutchless downshifting 'cause it hurts......

to echo LRRS167, I can tell you that if you don't know exactly what the hell it is you're doing, then don't do it...Common sense!!

When/if you have the APPROPRIATE environment to teach yourself or be taught to use one(slipper), then great...but I've never heard of guy's just smashing down a gear or two or three when they do not use a slipper. As I remember, A guy I met last year with multple class championships under his belt, told me that unless you want to be replacing gears very frequently, then either clutch on the DS, or get a slipper....No need to clutch on the US, but definitely clutch on your DS.

[benVFR]

So no matter how good you are it is not much effort to touch the lever with your fingers, and it better for the transmission.

Don't perfect clutchless upshifts even cause extra wear on the transmission? Maybe you don't notice it if you sell your bike every year or two but the extra wear will eventually make itself known?

One thing I know is if I'm at the track skipping the clutch is not going to suddenly make me 10 seconds faster.

[RSVMILLE661]

I have a slipper clutch on my Aprilia and I can assure you that I have never tried to downshift with out the clutch.. I would be afraid to knowing how much engine breaking effect she has as it is..

Slipper clutch or not.. it is not a good idea IMHO..

[odduc]

Don't perfect clutchless upshifts even cause extra wear on the transmission? Maybe you don't notice it if you sell your bike every year or two but the extra wear will eventually make itself known?

Ben, typically even clutchless upshifting is reserved for racing. There is really no need to upshift without the clutch for even the most aggressive streetriding. However, there are many squids out there who think that they will pick up that extra .000008 of a second by banging up through the gears without the clutch. Although I'm not sure who they are trying to impress, there are no Superbike team scouts to be found on any public roads...

[TTD]

My 2 cents...

Proper technique will allow upshifts with no damage. Using the clutch for any upshifts after 1st to 2nd is really not needed... especially when on the track where you're revving out each gear.

In fact, the clutch basically just disengages the engine from the tranny, so using the clutch actually requires MORE precision to do smoothly.

On the street, where the acceleration is more moderate, I tend to use the clutch because I don't care if it takes me 0.5 second longer to shift.

For downshifts, you should definitely use the clutch. I know it can be done without it, but you will definitely wear out your tranny sooner.

Real small bikes like 125cc gp bikes often don't use the clutch, but I recall reading a RoadRacing World article and even the Ulriches (who've been racing 125's for a long time) said to use it for downshifts.

As for slipper clutch, I wouldn't use that as an excuse to not use the clutch... that is not what they were designed for. Having said that, I really missed the slipper clutch when I first went to the CBR600.

I locked up the rear wheel several times because I was used to doing my downshifts and then dumping the clutch... and letting the slipper do the work.

Without a slipper, you should be "feeding out" the clutch after your last downshift.

When on the track, the ideal situation is to release the clutch and brake together... as you turn the throttle.... at the APEX.... while dragging your knee.

[OreoGaborio]

Originally posted by 35racer
When on the track, the ideal situation is to release the clutch and brake together... as you turn the throttle.... at the APEX.... while dragging your knee.

velly intellesting... so you don't even use engine braking that much?

and since i'm bein picky, in your case you're gettin on the gas BEFORE the apex, right big guy?

can't wait to talk more about this shit as the season gets closer... anyone got a copy of some good books lyin around i can borrow?

[RandyO]

Originally posted by 35racer
My 2 cents...

In fact, the clutch basically just disengages the engine from the tranny, so using the clutch actually requires MORE precision to do smoothly.

On the street, where the acceleration is more moderate, I tend to use the clutch because I don't care if it takes me 0.5 second longer to shift.

clutchless upshifts "might" be smoother than completly disengaging the clutch, but not smoother than a quick tap to make it slip during the shift

[TTD]

I absolutely use engine braking.

The clutch is not FULLY released until the APEX... but it is definitely being fed out slowly and the engine is engaged.

Remember, the hard FRONT braking is done mostly straight up... as is the major portion of the engine braking (REAR Braking)

But before either the clutch or front brake have been released, I've leaned over.

The APEX in my definition is the point of the corner where I've finally completely released brake and clutch and have started to accelerate.

Hope this clarifies my method... (whether it is right or wrong is for others to argue)

[TTD]

Originally posted by RandyO
clutchless upshifts "might" be smoother than completly disengaging the clutch, but not smoother than a quick tap to make it slip during the shift

I don't understand...

A quick tap on what?

[OreoGaborio]

Originally posted by 35racer
The APEX in my definition is the point of the corner where I've finally completely released brake and clutch and have started to accelerate.

ah, aight... so your use of the word "apex" is wherever you feel like accelerating again, got cha

Originally posted by 35racer
I don't understand...

A quick tap on what?

tap on the clutch lever i'm guessin

Here's the original thread if you guys wanna sift through the crap & pick apart my posts i didn't throw in my .02 till the 3rd page.

http://forums.sportbikes.net/forums/...d.php?t=271396

[Ducrappy]

I managed to accidently downshift without pulling in the clutch once, and it scared the shit out of me. The rear wheel chattering across the pavement felt as if I was riding over railroad ties until I managed to pull the clutch in. I was moving my foot in anticipation for an upshift when I hit a bump in the road that knocked my foot down onto the gear shift. Never again will I do that.

[Degsy]

Yeah, I'm the absolute rack record holder at MFY and I use the clutch to downshift.

The kid is talking bollox. You watch Val Rossi when they have the camera on his clutch hand.

I don't believe that Keith Code teaches clutchless downshifts and if he does it's just his usual 'anything to be different' teaching technique.

The kid who is the "absolute record holder at SOW":

Firstly, WTF is SOW? Secondly, if he is the track record holder for some track then someone probably pays for his tranny rebuilds. If he clutchless downshifts that might be his technique, but he's wrecking his motor and unsettling the bike.


(MFY=My Front Yard)

derek

[Degsy]

Do a search on Will Eikenberry. Yahoo says "Will fucking who?"


I think he's full of shite.

derek

[OreoGaborio]

way to come through, D... i knew i could count on you

[OreoGaborio]

he seemed to cut the sarcastic shit once i showed him the links for all the TonysTrackDay instructors & NESR Racing team (and i REEEAALLLY hope you guys don't mind... he wanted me to name names of all these mysterious guru's i was speaking of i'll take the links down if you wish, just lemme know)

he also said this about that Will Eikenberry dude

At 41 years old, Eikenberry is not a kid anymore. But he is incredibly fast, smooth, and talented. He got a late start in the racing scene, however, having formerly been a track school intructor at California Superbike School, and head mechanic. You want to learn something about what makes a motorcycle work mechanically, what's good for it, and what's bad for it? Then Will is your man. SOW is Streets of Willow. It's a well known, very technical racetrack in So Cal. He's no slouch at WSIR, either.

but didn't provide a link w/ more info, though i did find his name mentioned if you google "Will Eikenberry Streets Of Willow"

[RandyO]

Originally posted by 35racer
I don't understand...

A quick tap on what?

the clutch lever with a couple of your fingers, once you have toe pressure on the shifter, pull the clutch lever in just enuf to take up the freeplay and a little more, the slight slippage in the clutch will unload some of the pressure on the gears, shifter slites into next gear

might not work quite as well with barnett clutch springs though, I've never ridden anything with them, but I hear they are stiff

[TTD]

Are you saying to not roll off the throttle when you "tap" the clutch?

Basically, if you pre-load the shifter, it will snick into the next higher gear when you give the throttle a quick chop... regardless of what you do with the clutch.

NOTE: if you are saying to not let up on the gas at all... then I say that's another recipe for damaging/wearing parts. I used to shift that way my first year of racing.

[Degsy]

Sounds fishy to me still. I think there must be a lot more involved than just shifting without the clutch.

Oh, SOW, Streets of Willow. That's a small track (but longer than Loudon) beside Willow Springs in CA. Very technical.


Will Eikenberry holds the #2 plate there in Formula 40, but WSMC is a small club. There aren't any big names on the list of top riders there and they state on their website that they do not keep lap records for the Streets track.


derek