Ducati, the 1098 and WSBK rules

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Originally Posted by OreoGitorio

I still don't get it... you guys all say that V2's and I4's each have their advantages & disadvantages and you can all recognize the fact that they are NOT EQUAL ENGINES based on displacement... why then do you guys expect the rules governing displacement to be equal?

Someone said earlier that Ducati is currently allowed to make changes in their powerplants that the I4's are not allowed to make and they're willing to get rid of those advantages if they can get a displacement advantage. If that's true, it sounds pretty reasonable to me.

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:stupid: :D

Dude, that is a long dead myth that twins inherently make more torque than a 4, size for size. The shape and character of the curve may be different, but not larger. Go take a brandy new 1098 Ducati, put it up against, say, a new GSXR1000. Put them both in high gear, slow em both way down, and start doing roll-ons. You might be surprised.

I have 2 solutions.

Make the rules Unlimited displacement and see wins.

or
Make 2 classes, all twins and all 4 and see who loses.

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Originally Posted by OreoGitorio

I still don't get it... you guys all say that V2's and I4's each have their advantages & disadvantages and you can all recognize the fact that they are NOT EQUAL ENGINES based on displacement... why then do you guys expect the rules governing displacement to be equal?

Someone said earlier that Ducati is currently allowed to make changes in their powerplants that the I4's are not allowed to make and they're willing to get rid of those advantages if they can get a displacement advantage. If that's true, it sounds pretty reasonable to me.

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SHUTUP PETE! You're too wet behind the ears for this argument. LOL.

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Originally Posted by Doc

I have 2 solutions.

Make the rules Unlimited displacement and see wins.

or
Make 2 classes, all twins and all 4 and see who loses.

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Kind of on your point, I loved the Formula Extreme series..."Build the most raw machine you can and go race it". Valvoline/EMGO gixxer 1100's stuffed into 750 chassis...mmmmmm...NOW YOU'RE TALIKNG MY GAME!

Ok...back on topic. Here is the formula: Whining + Side Deal = Ducati :)

I like the solution suggested in the RoadRacer X
article.

No engine rules... just a set amount of fuel for the race...
manufacturers have to make the fastest, fuel efficient bike
with no restrictions. Easy to monitor and good for technology
and the environment.

This takes it to the level of prototype racing, like Moto GP.
But AMA Superbike and WSBK was never really a stock based
series anyway not matter what they say to contrary.

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Originally Posted by Rye

Kind of on your point, I loved the Formula Extreme series..."Build the most raw machine you can and go race it". Valvoline/EMGO gixxer 1100's stuffed into 750 chassis...mmmmmm...NOW YOU'RE TALIKNG MY GAME!

Ok...back on topic. Here is the formula: Whining + Side Deal = Ducati :)

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Not trying to Hijack!
You guys must be younguns! You would've LOVED the original Formula USA that Willow Springs used to host. I never had the good fortune to see it, but the moto-mags gave some neat coverage
NO RULES period. OK, the standard safety rules applied. There were full monster superbiked GSXR1100s, TZ250s, year old YZR500s{YES GP bikes} etc. Even turbos and NOS bikes. It was F'n cool :devil: ! Too bad it morphed into a much more conventional class.

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Originally Posted by Rye

I disagree. The WSBK class exists so people can watch "their bike" run circles around a track. The v-twin is as much a part of the Ducati's as it is with a Harley. They would never maintain a GP and WSBK experimental platform. I don't think any mfg. would...see Suzuki with the TLR.

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Who said anything about an experimental platform? WSBK is production based.. as it is the 999 WSBK bike is closer to an experimental platform then anything else on the grid, why do you think they want 1200cc?

You really think people will stop buying Monsters, Multistradas, etc.. if the 1098 was replaced by a V-4? The twins have plenty of compelling features that appeal to street riders, you don't have to make one engine do everything. Ducati has already shipped the street version of the Desmosedici anyway so they can obviously do it.

If they have to have a displacement advantage I'd just rather see the I-4s get restricted to a smaller size again.. maybe 750cc is too small, but what if they make them 800cc? Balance it by reducing the 4s rather then letting the twins keep getting bigger. This whole problem would not have happened if the I-4s had been kept at 750cc in the first place.

Well, they can't put a GP engine in a frame and run it in WSBK or AMA anyway..
Has to be production based. We do see there is a production based platform now, but they have to $ell $o many copie$ to the public ..isn't it 500 units needed available to the public, before they can run them?

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Originally Posted by Tabby

Not trying to Hijack!
You guys must be younguns! You would've LOVED the original Formula USA that Willow Springs used to host. I never had the good fortune to see it, but the moto-mags gave some neat coverage
NO RULES period. OK, the standard safety rules applied. There were full monster superbiked GSXR1100s, TZ250s, year old YZR500s{YES GP bikes} etc. Even turbos and NOS bikes. It was F'n cool :devil: ! Too bad it morphed into a much more conventional class.

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That does sound pretty damn cool! Im tryin to see videos online but haven't been able to find any yet, how'd the NOS bikes do?

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Originally Posted by Rye

You talk about 'seeing the forest through the trees', the big 4's complained because the f'n cheat Ducati's were running 916's! Better yet, as a real Ducati enthusiast...you would have known they were running 996's in their 916's! By my calc, that is a nearly 250 cc (33%) advantage over their counterparts! They've got chassis advantages in addition to their valve actuation advantage. But I know you're doing your part as a representative of the man now...just don't tell me you can justify a 33% bigger motor. That is embarrassing.
Also, If you saw the most recent round @ Valencia, you would see how closely matched the 999 was against the I4's. Xaus was passing at will in corners on that tight circuit.

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Ah yes, the inevitable 'you work for them' callout. Figured it was only a amount of time.


I can justify the 33% displacement advantage by, again, pointing out that performance indexing race classes based on various engine configurations is nothing new. How is it my 700cc water cooled twin can compete against 800cc air cooled twins, 1200cc push-rod twins, 250cc two strokes, and 400cc inline fours. And by compete I mean we all go about the same speed out of turns and down straights (eliminating rider factor)

Whatever man. Enjoy the Racing, as long as it's good I don't really care how the teams / riders / bikes get there.

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Originally Posted by Rye

SHUTUP PETE! You're too wet behind the ears for this argument. LOL.

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OUCH!!! TOUCHE!!!! Ya got me there, fukker. Certainly debunked my theory, OUTSTANDING ARGUMENT AND REBUTTAL! :twofinger

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Originally Posted by Doc

Ducati's have more torque. Torque equals power to the ground and the ability to power through corners not just on the straights. Traction control has negated that "advantage".

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Torque does not equal power to the ground. Torque is a measurement of rotational force. Power, as it pertains to motorcycles in simplified terms, is the rate at which torque is applied to the rear wheel. If 2 engines both make 80lbs-ft of torque, but one makes it at 12K RPMs while the other makes it at 10K, the higher revving engine makes more power.

Acceleration out of corners and down the straights is more closely tied to horsepower, not torque. More power means greater acceleration. The higher HP 4-cylinder bikes are more likely to break loose under heavy throttle so traction control helps this by reducing power to the rear wheel without involving the rider.

Ducati likes to point out that the 1098 has the highest torque-to-weight ratio of any production bike but that statistic makes the I-4 owners chuckle while they pull away on their higher power-to-weight ratio bikes.

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Originally Posted by benVFR

Who said anything about an experimental platform? WSBK is production based.. as it is the 999 WSBK bike is closer to an experimental platform then anything else on the grid, why do you think they want 1200cc?

You really think people will stop buying Monsters, Multistradas, etc.. if the 1098 was replaced by a V-4? The twins have plenty of compelling features that appeal to street riders, you don't have to make one engine do everything. Ducati has already shipped the street version of the Desmosedici anyway so they can obviously do it.

If they have to have a displacement advantage I'd just rather see the I-4s get restricted to a smaller size again.. maybe 750cc is too small, but what if they make them 800cc? Balance it by reducing the 4s rather then letting the twins keep getting bigger. This whole problem would not have happened if the I-4s had been kept at 750cc in the first place.

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I'd take that as well. :)

Here you go Pete, good read MOTOLIAM - A Cog in the MotoGP Machine: