Four finger braking: Yes or no?

[Honclfibr]

As far as braking... If your on the brakes you shouldn't be on the throttle when riding on the street. (per MSF) No need to have any fingers on the throttle so you can put em all on the brake lever. Racer types use 2 to better modulate the throttle.

I disagree. By covering the brake with my middle and ring finger and modulating the throttle with my thumb and index finger, I can brake when necessary before completely closing the throttle, and continue closing the throttle while braking.

This allows for smoother braking while slowing down, since the throttle is not chopped in order to begin braking, and allows me to start braking immediately in a hard braking situation. The idea that one should completely roll off the throttle *then* grab the lever with all four fingers seems to be an unecessary step which increases the reaction time necessary to begin braking.

I can certainly understand treating them as discrete steps when teaching someone to ride, as the brain is still getting used to the various controls. But I can't see discouraging the technique of holding the throttle with the thumb and index fingers while covering the brake with the middle and ring fingers. If the situation warrants it, by all means move the forefinger off the throttle and onto the lever during braking to add more leverage, but otherwise I don't see a problem keeping it on the throttle to allow a smooth transition back onto the throttle after braking is finished.

[RyanNicholson]

By covering the brake with my middle and ring finger and modulating the throttle with my thumb and index finger, I can brake when necessary before completely closing the throttle, and continue closing the throttle while braking.

this is exactly how i ride, both street and track

[Doc]

but but how are u suppose to do burnout?

Kham is so funny
He tried to make a good joke
He does so poorly.

[Doc]

I disagree. By covering the brake with my middle and ring finger and modulating the throttle with my thumb and index finger, I can brake when necessary before completely closing the throttle, and continue closing the throttle while braking.

This allows for smoother braking while slowing down, since the throttle is not chopped in order to begin braking, and allows me to start braking immediately in a hard braking situation. The idea that one should completely roll off the throttle *then* grab the lever with all four fingers seems to be an unecessary step which increases the reaction time necessary to begin braking.

I can certainly understand treating them as discrete steps when teaching someone to ride, as the brain is still getting used to the various controls. But I can't see discouraging the technique of holding the throttle with the thumb and index fingers while covering the brake with the middle and ring fingers. If the situation warrants it, by all means move the forefinger off the throttle and onto the lever during braking to add more leverage, but otherwise I don't see a problem keeping it on the throttle to allow a smooth transition back onto the throttle after braking is finished.

Ok now see I said they teach to COVER the levers "Mostly clutch". As a new instructor I may have gotten confused and may have confused others.

It is not that you ride covering the front brake. The MSF definately teaches 4 fingered braking and smooth throttle inputs.

You must also remember this is parking lot speed. Like 15 MPH.

[Honclfibr]

Ok now see I said they teach to COVER the levers "Mostly clutch". As a new instructor I may have gotten confused and may have confused others.

It is not that you ride covering the front brake. The MSF definately teaches 4 fingered braking and smooth throttle inputs.

You must also remember this is parking lot speed. Like 15 MPH.

Ya lost me.

[butcher bergs]

Bergs, You should go pick up your championship trophy right away. No need to prove your skill as you already know everything you need.

Wow. I guess you're reading too far into the question.

Our goal is to help people avoid a hazard by stopping quickly. Our technique has proven to work. What's your problem with that?

No problem with anything. Just wondering why is MSF instilling the *limitation*.

I guess, in the process of being a smart ass, you missed the part where I stated "I'm trying to gain understanding". I guess this is the best you can do to help...again, wow.

His problem is then he is not RIGHT.

And another one who's missed it. My curiosity isn't about being right or wrong, I'm questioning the limitation or the purpose of............again, might wanna try reading before posting. Never once did I say "that's wrong". However I did state that I don't find that limiting new riders to the use of 4 finger braking particularly safe or instructional. And again, as previously stated, it's just my opinion.

Sorry that I wanted to hear any and all information regarding this topic and furthermore, sorry for wanting to post my thoughts in exchange for perspective.

And since you two wanna be funny, I'm done here.

Thank you both for barely helping myself and others understand the "why's" of the MSF 4 finger brake limitation method.

If you instruct like you post, you might want to consider that.......just sayin'

[Doc]

Ya lost me.

Then I succeded.

[Doc]

Wow. I guess you're reading too far into the question.


No problem with anything. Just wondering why is MSF instilling the *limitation*.

I guess, in the process of being a smart ass, you missed the part where I stated "I'm trying to gain understanding". I guess this is the best you can do to help...again, wow.



And another one who's missed it. My curiosity isn't about being right or wrong, I'm questioning the limitation or the purpose of............again, might wanna try reading before posting. Never once did I say "that's wrong". However I did state that I don't find that limiting new riders to the use of 4 finger braking particularly safe or instructional. And again, as previously stated, it's just my opinion.

Sorry that I wanted to hear any and all information regarding this topic and furthermore, sorry for wanting to post my thoughts in exchange for perspective.

And since you two wanna be funny, I'm done here.

Thank you both for barely helping myself and others understand the "why's" of the MSF 4 finger brake limitation method.

If you instruct like you post, you might want to consider that.......just sayin'

Bergs... slow down man.

Labeling it a "limitation" shows what you think of the instruction.

Remember we are talking first time riders, that ham fist the controls. they roll on the throttle when trying to modulate the brakes, they are wobbly in the corners, they death grip the handlebars.

We are not talking racers or even competent street riders. Using 4 fingers on the brake is the most efficent way to use the brake according to the MSF. (and if you tried to brake on one of those bikes with only 2 fingers you would agree as well, because your fingers would get pinched)

I would think that you would see the need to not put this way of thinking down, especially to those who may have just had the course.

I find that I ride like an instructor when teaching the MSF and a racer (or my limited ability as one) when on the track and in between on the street.

Plain and simple the 3/4 finger method gives better control and more stopping power for MOST noob riders.

If you want to get into an advanced technique like 2 fingered braking you won't get that from the MSF.

[butcher bergs]

Bergs... slow down man.

Quit screwing with me and I will.

Labeling it a "limitation" shows what you think of the instruction.

What am I showing about what I think about the instruction I wonder?

Please go back and you'll see this:

EDIT: I'm not suggesting that two or three finger braking is the Holy Grail, I'm trying to gain more understanding about the method of four finger braking.

To clarify my use of the word "limitation", one thing we can all agree on, new rider or not, is there are a few methods of slowing a motorcycle down with the front brake. Why show only one method and even beyond that, why "make" the new rider use this method? In my o-p-i-n-i-o-n, I call that limiting.

What backs up my use of the word "limitation" is when my sister was spoken to this past weekend (a few times) for NOT using 4 fingers on the front brake. While she is not a brand new rider, that scenario to me sends a clear message....that message being "regardless of what you, the new rider, is comfortable with, THIS is the way to use the front brake."

Remember we are talking first time riders, that ham fist the controls. they roll on the throttle when trying to modulate the brakes, they are wobbly in the corners, they death grip the handlebars.

Exactly. My question for that is, what exactly is gained by making a new rider remove all fingers from the bar to use the brake? Is it not more difficult to modulate the front brake when a rider is wobbling all over the place?

I would think that you would see the need to not put this way of thinking down, especially to those who may have just had the course.

Not putting down, just making a currently failed attempt at understanding why.

[Doc]

Well I have to tell you that I too used only 2 fingers when in my ERC class AND when taking the instructor course and I too was reprimanded for using the 2 finger method. (Actually had my hand slapped, literally )

Basically it came down to "Gross to fine" You start with the Gross motor functions and you work up to the Fine motor functions.

That and there was a feeling that you had more control/ feel with 4 fingers, also that your fingers would not get pinched... Ever. Be that from poor brakes or brake malfunction.

I was on the YSR coming down a BIG hill and only used 2 fingers... I pinched my fingers in there and had to quickly let up on the brakes to get em out so I could apply MORE brakes. I almost plowed up the back of a minivan (and on the YSR a minivan bumper is in my face, I am that low. )

Does this help explain?

[butcher bergs]

Basically it came down to "Gross to fine" You start with the Gross motor functions and you work up to the Fine motor functions.

That and there was a feeling that you had more control/ feel with 4 fingers, also that your fingers would not get pinched... Ever. Be that from poor brakes or brake malfunction.

This statement has changed my thinking. Thank you.

Yesterday I was uninformed, today I've gained new knowledge.

Having never taken an MSF course, I now completely understand why the method is used. One must start with the basics and hone your skills from there. Apparently, this is on all levels of riding as I've forgotten what it's like to be a new rider with the wobblies and feeling of discomfort, etc.

The instant I read "gross to fine" it clicked. I never afforded myself the chance to learn that......I just jumped on the first street bike I could afford and hoped for the best (and nearly paid the ultimate price in the process).

Congrats! You've cleared yourself from the shit list, Doc.

As far as the birthday boy......I'll let it slide since this is your day.

[Paul_E_D]

Bergs, Sorry about my frustration with you, but your questioning was pointed and many good reasons were offered, as well as some iffy ones, but you didn't seem like you were respecting anyone's experience over your own.

On the internet, that's frustrating to me. I do it, too. Another reason it frustrates me. I don't suffer the same issue in person.

Anyway, I'm glad you have accepted some reasoning for the technique. Gross to fine motor skill development is so basic to the course that I didn't think of it as a reason. But Doc is right on.

[butcher bergs]

Bergs, Sorry about my frustration with you, but your questioning was pointed and many good reasons were offered, as well as some iffy ones, but you didn't seem like you were respecting anyone's experience over your own.

No worries. The internet doesn't convey honest inquiries very well and I understand how my repeated questions could have been misconstrued.

My only intent was to have the light shown to me.......I guess somewhat at the cost of losing face.

My apologies for getting you frustrated....again, not what I was aiming for.

[kbroderick]

You can add a ten-year-old Ninja 250 to the list of bikes that require more than two fingers for maximum braking. After reading a bit of Sport Riding Techniques, I decided to try the middle-two-fingers-on-the-lever drill. It works fine for casual slowing on corner entry, but I can't get nearly as much stopping power (or as much control) as when using four fingers. I expect that this may change when I get around to swapping the factory soft lines for stainless steel and putting in new brake fluid (since I doubt either service has been done since the bike left the factory). And the Ninja brakes far better than the Nighthawk I was riding in the MSF class; in the emergency stopping drill in the class, I could just get on both brakes hard and the bike would stop without apparent sliding; doing the same on my Ninja would definitely lock up both wheels and/or result in pavement surfing.

[Doc]

This statement has changed my thinking. Thank you.

Yesterday I was uninformed, today I've gained new knowledge.

Having never taken an MSF course, I now completely understand why the method is used. One must start with the basics and hone your skills from there. Apparently, this is on all levels of riding as I've forgotten what it's like to be a new rider with the wobblies and feeling of discomfort, etc.

The instant I read "gross to fine" it clicked. I never afforded myself the chance to learn that......I just jumped on the first street bike I could afford and hoped for the best (and nearly paid the ultimate price in the process).

Congrats! You've cleared yourself from the shit list, Doc.

As far as the birthday boy......I'll let it slide since this is your day.

A am VERY glad I was able to convey that and get th point across. Don't feel bad Paul. I am new and fresh... (I still had to go look in my notes!)

I think this little exchange has illustrated how people can come across the wrong way on the internets. Either as a "know it all" or a "gear Nazi"...

It's all good. I still love ya Bergs!

[butcher bergs]

I think this little exchange has illustrated how people can come across the wrong way on the internets. Either as a "know it all" or a "gear Nazi"...

Sheesh! You ain't kiddin'.
There's no face to the internet....kinda makes certain things challenging at times.

It's all good. I still love ya Bergs!

You too, man!

[viva_brasil]

is this from the discussion started last sunday on the ride?

I brake with 1 or 2, usually 2. how can you blip the throttle with four fingers on the lever? Maybe just with the thumb but that makes it too jerky for me, I need to have more throttle control than just my thumb. I use ring and pinky around the throttle to blip (and on the street I shift down to help with braking so I have to blip a little so it doesnt jerk- don't have a slipper... and i don't like coasting in neutral while braking).

And that's also not mentioning that 4 fingers wouldnt fit on the shorty lever. If I had a regular lever then I think applying pressure towards the end of the lever (i.e. with all 4 fingers so you have control on the edge of the lever) would give a more precise feel simply because of the lever effect (you need less force to pull it in on the edge so the feel is more precise, whereas if you just have 1 or 2 fingers close to the inside of the lever the feel won't be as precise). With the shorty lever I can still have the precise feel towards the edge of the lever with only one or two fingers.

[kamikaze]

I use 2 unless I am teaching the MSF Basic course.

Take Notice! To know how to REALLY ride a bike, ask teh experts outside class!

[BLACK SQUIRREL]

Take Notice! To know how to REALLY ride a bike, ask teh experts outside class!

DO Not Take Braking Advice from Someone Named "Kamikaze".

[viva_brasil]

DO Not Take Braking Advice from Someone Named "Kamikaze".

[Doc]

Take Notice! To know how to REALLY ride a bike, ask teh experts outside class!

I am NOT an expert.

[vfr99999]

Watched pre recorded gp race today and it showed both Rossi and Stoner braking using the two fingers. Yes the smallest two on the right hand.

[viva_brasil]

Watched pre recorded gp race today and it showed both Rossi and Stoner braking using the two fingers. Yes the smallest two on the right hand.

like pinky and ring?? whaa? actually now that I look at my hand, that would be index and pinky... lol, did u mean index and middle?

[Erebus]

4 on the clutch but only 3 on the brake. My right index finger has been broken more than once and it's not as flexible as it once was. I can use it but I choose not to cause it's uncomfortable.

[DuncanMoto]

Watched pre recorded gp race today and it showed both Rossi and Stoner braking using the two fingers. Yes the smallest two on the right hand.

Of course, if you listen and look closely you'll see Rossi uses no engine braking either. He will downshift into 2nd gear as he's braking from 180. My point being, we should not try to copy Rossi or Stoner with his mono block Brembos.