Motorcycle-only checkpoints rev up controversy in Congress

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Originally Posted by SRTie4k

Are there actually any statistics to prove that people riding smaller displacement bikes generally have higher survival rates in crashes compared to people on 600's or 1000's? It may sound like a stupid question, but the fact is you can kill yourself on a 250 just as easily as you can on a 1000.

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The statistics I've seen and I'm sure they were in the AMA journal were just the opposite*edit misunderstood the comment*. Think about who can afford the larger faster bike. You're not getting a kid throwing down the money for a new 1000. They buy the older slower, not slow mind you, 600. Even still most accident are the "left turn in front of you". Cruise at a given speed the high end sport bike is likely to stop quicker. Not that that matters because you probable don't have time to stop anyway. So, size and speed do not matter. Awareness goes along way but that still doesn't point to a step license. The single bike accident may be a different story. Still, be dumb you die, odds are you are not taking anyone else with you. Plenty of people have crashed little bikes.

*edit insurance companies tried to get ride of large displacement bikes saying they were dangerous. Turn out they have less crashes due to the reasons I gave*

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Originally Posted by timmyho414

good point.

I think I make my point more clear in the post make the same time you posted something.

We all lived through the "learning years". I can't stand people who all of a sudden think they know best for everyone else. That's how we end up with the Nanny states. People need to be able to make there own decision and pay the consequences. Good or bad. I learn that when I was little. If I could start it I could ride it, if I could not get it unstuck on my own I was done riding. People now expect to walk around and hit the reset button if they don't like what happened. Someone else should do it, help me, no one told me, I didn't know. Grow up.

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I don't oppose learning for yourself, in fact in encourage it. But the same way I learned, in my back yard, on a small dirt bike, where there was nobody to hurt. Then upgrading to trails, then dirt roads, then public roads. Why should public roads be the first step?

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Originally Posted by NobodySpecific

I don't oppose learning for yourself, in fact in encourage it. But the same way I learned, in my back yard, on a small dirt bike, where there was nobody to hurt. Then upgrading to trails, then dirt roads, then public roads. Why should public roads be the first step?

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Where did you learn to drive? Why should it be different for bike. The rider is in far more danger then the general public.
Not everyone has a back yard to learn in. What are they to do? I learned to ride in the cemetery next to my house and in my neighborhood when I was 13 or 14. Not exactly legal.

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Originally Posted by timmyho414

Where did you learn to drive? Why should it be different for bike. The rider is in far more danger then the general public.
Not everyone has a back yard to learn in. What are they to do? I learned to ride in the cemetery next to my house and in my neighborhood when I was 13 or 14. Not exactly legal.

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I learned to drive in parking lots and lonely dirt roads in my father's beat-up S15. Wouldn't let me leave until I could start uphill and not spin the tires in the dirt. And then I had driver's ed, where the instructor had a brake pedal at all times. Then riding with my parents, with them watching over the situation. Then I got my license.

Edit: I also worked on a private property doing site maintenance, and got to drive around there starting at 14. But that's unusual and not available to everybody.

The steps to getting on the road on 2 wheels? Take a written test.

It shouldn't be that easy. Thankfully I had 10 years of dirt bike experience to get me by, so I didn't have any issues adapting to the street.

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Originally Posted by NobodySpecific

The steps to getting on the road on 2 wheels? Take a written test.

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Okay, that's were the problem is. In NH you have to pass the motorcycle driver test. Its just a bunch of low speed maneuvers in a parking lot. I'm not sure if you can get your permit with out first having your normal license. And I suppose you get your permit and you can rider on the street for a give number of days that keeps changing. I would agree the you should at least have pass drivers ed if under 18. 18+ have at it. I still say you will do far more harm to yourself then anyone else.

Thinking back I know a kid in high school that had a motorcycle and somehow never took drivers ed. Might be one of those loop holes.

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Originally Posted by NobodySpecific

I learned to drive in parking lots and lonely dirt roads in my father's beat-up S15. Wouldn't let me leave until I could start uphill and not spin the tires in the dirt.

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And even more to my point. You did it right, I did it right(farm tractor and shit box '84 escort with my mother), I bet a lot of others on here did it right. Where is the problem?

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Originally Posted by timmyho414

Okay, that's were the problem is. In NH you have to pass the motorcycle driver test. Its just a bunch of low speed maneuvers in a parking lot. I'm not sure if you can get your permit with out first having your normal license. And I suppose you get your permit and you can rider on the street for a give number of days that keeps changing. I would agree the you should at least have pass drivers ed if under 18. 18+ have at it. I still say you will do far more harm to yourself then anyone else.

Thinking back I know a kid in high school that had a motorcycle and somehow never took drivers ed. Might be one of those loop holes.

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In MA the only requirement for the permit was to take the written driving test for motorcycles (20 questions, don't remember the score to pass). That allowed you to ride anywhere in the state, sun rise to sunset, as long as you didn't have a passenger. I think it was good for a year. Maybe that's changed now, but I was able to go a log a fair amount of miles without ever breaking the law. It just seems way too easy.

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Originally Posted by timmyho414

And even more to my point. You did it right, I did it right(farm tractor and shit box '84 escort with my mother), I bet a lot of others on here did it right. Where is the problem?

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I wasn't talking about cars, you asked me a question :dunno: The problem is with the motorcycling licensing system. The test for a car license is a joke as well, but they have some good limitations in place (no passengers first 6 months or more, drivers ed under 18 in MA, etc).

Spring yet?

Alright last one.

I said car because you learn to drive on the road just like many people do motorcycle. Who cares if the motorcycle license is easy, it your life. A car is far more deadly to the public then a motorcycle. If you don't want to wear a helmet its your life. If you want to go out and kill yourself that your business. Furthermore, I'm in NH I do not care one bit what other states do and I definitely don't care what Mass does.

And none of this has to do with check points.

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Originally Posted by NobodySpecific

I don't oppose learning for yourself, in fact in encourage it. But the same way I learned, in my back yard, on a small dirt bike, where there was nobody to hurt. Then upgrading to trails, then dirt roads, then public roads. Why should public roads be the first step?

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Holy Carp, I should be dead. I learned on the street. Never ridden a dirt bike in my life (nope, not even in the pits at the track). Guess I shouldn't have a license since I'm a danger to society.

Shit, I think every restriction mentioned is good plus some. People are horrible and unsafe drivers. Start with gocarts and move up a little every year.

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Originally Posted by mzdagrl

Holy Carp, I should be dead. I learned on the street. Never ridden a dirt bike in my life (nope, not even in the pits at the track). Guess I shouldn't have a license since I'm a danger to society.

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holy carp! Me too, I bought my first bike without ever being on one before, no dirtbikes, no pit bikes,no MSF class, nothing... t. practiced for the 30 days that the learners permit gave me and then passed my test with a 98/100. Granted i have crashed, but it was after about 60k street miles and 4 track days, so i doubt that it was from a lack of training.

Not for nothing, after reading a bit about this, I have decided that whereas I may like the idea of tiered licensing on its face, I am agains the idea in general.

If I have the money, I want to get the vehicle I want to get and operate. Would you say to someone that they can't have a full sized pickup truck because they just got their license? They have to start with a small or midsize? Or that you may have the funds to buy a high end sporty car, but you have to have that four cylinder car first? (I know I am talking about tiered licensing for 4 wheeled cars, but we already have to take a test to ride a motorcycle, meaning extra "training" to rde)

Now in many minds when it comes to cars/trucks, higher ed means safer right? More and better safety features. Well, I believe the same thing for bikes. A faster bike may get me away from trouble when I need it. Higher end and displacement bikes are now coming with ABS, traction control, lift control, etc. I sincerely doubt we will see, if ever, those things on lower displacement bikes. Hell, the reason I got my S1000RR is that it was a safer sportbike (at least that's what I told the wife). :) And now pretty much any other cruiser or adventure bike I buy from now on will have ABS and such on it.

Just my .02

Oh, and I forgot to say...

how fast you go and how safe you are is about YOU. Not the bike. My 1000 will go damn fast if I twist my wrist hard, but I choose not to. a 600, same thing, a 250, ame thing. Maybe not to the speeds of the bigger displacements, but still fast enough to die of you are stupid. :p

The difference between a BMW S1000RR and my CBR250R (Aka a learners bike) is if I pin the throttle to the stop in first, people point and laugh at the farting noises coming from the oversized scooter as it poops along against the rev limiter. If I pin the throttle at the wrong time on the S1000RR I'm getting spat off something, slid under something, or my head whacked on something as it loops around.

Both bikes will get me out of a bad situation in a hurry if required. Oh, my 250R is available with ABS. The 'lift' and 'traction' control options are stock, it's called 28hp.

Tiered licensing works everywhere I've seen it. I'd LOVE for riders in the US to have the skill and respect for bikes they have in Europe as a population. Of course, they also take their car education much more seriously too (especially Germany) which I wouldn't mind seeing over here.

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Originally Posted by Kurlon

Tiered licensing works everywhere I've seen it. I'd LOVE for riders in the US to have the skill and respect for bikes they have in Europe as a population. Of course, they also take their car education much more seriously too (especially Germany) which I wouldn't mind seeing over here.

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The problem is, we here in America see driving as a RIGHT, not a PRIVILEGE. Too many people don't pay attention to things because they assume that they have every right to be driving as everyone else, no matter how many times or how badly they screw up. It's not taken as seriously here as it is in Europe.

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Originally Posted by mzdagrl

The problem is, we here in America see driving as a RIGHT, not a PRIVILEGE. Too many people don't pay attention to things because they assume that they have every right to be driving as everyone else, no matter how many times or how badly they screw up. It's not taken as seriously here as it is in Europe.

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Agreed, hadn't looked at it in those terms, but that makes perfect sense.

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Originally Posted by mzdagrl

The problem is, we here in America see driving as a RIGHT, not a PRIVILEGE. Too many people don't pay attention to things because they assume that they have every right to be driving as everyone else, no matter how many times or how badly they screw up. It's not taken as seriously here as it is in Europe.

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But it shouldn't be viewed like that. Cars, trucks, bikes whatever. The bar is set so low you might as well just eliminate the whole license deal all together. Only difference than happens now would be revenue lost.

Timmyho. Seriously, I don't mean any disrespect, but you are so far off base I don't know where to begin.

You disagree with tiered licensing and you disagree with helmet laws. That's fine. No problem, you are entitled to your opinion.

You should really stay away from assumptions and statistics based on quesswork though, because you are all wrong about accident figures and accident causes (speed, bike displacement etc)

This should be a state issue anyway. Feds proscribing local behavior like this using tax money is disgusting. That NH HB148 is right on.

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Originally Posted by Degsy

Timmyho. Seriously, I don't mean any disrespect, but you are so far off base I don't know where to begin.

You disagree with tiered licensing and you disagree with helmet laws. That's fine. No problem, you are entitled to your opinion.

You should really stay away from assumptions and statistics based on quesswork though, because you are all wrong about accident figures and accident causes (speed, bike displacement etc)

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None taken.

Tier licensing may be good, I don't doubt that. I did it myself. Learned on a bicycle, then a CB125. I bough at CBR600F4 brand new in '01. I raced my 748 before I bought my 749R. I just don't think it should be mandatory. You can have your own opinion too. The difference is my opinion does not affect everyone else, your does.

My statistics were off memory. I'm pretty sure the last study done(Hurt, I just looked it up) which said 3/4 of accidents involved another vehicle, mostly cars. 2/3 of those the car violated the motorcycles right of way.

http://www.motorcycle-accidents.com/pages/stats.html

How does displacement or tier licensing change that?

I look forward to the new study which I believe is underway. AMA has been working to raise money for a new one. Hurt report was from the 70 or 80 and the road/drivers have changed a lot since then.

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Originally Posted by nhbubba

This should be a state issue anyway. Feds proscribing local behavior like this using tax money is disgusting. That NH HB148 is right on.

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I totally agree.

The states AND the fed are concerned about motorcycle fatalities, particularly in Florida and California where fatalities are over 400 a year.

Whether or not the fed should be getting involved, they ARE and are offering money to the various states to pay for checkpoints, rider education, motorcycle enforcement initiatives.

This very simply boils down to one thing. WE fix it or THEY will fix it. If we as a group carry on killing ourselves, the feds and states will have the moral ground to come in and legislate.

Helmet education for all and mandatory helmet use for permit holders coupled with mandatory minimum rider training (MSF, ARC, whatever) WILL reduce accident rates and fatalities. Tiered licensing WILL reduce accident rates and fatalities. If we do that, we will end up with the freedom to ride uninhibited.

If the feds step in, we will end up with choked motors, horsepower limits, anti-tampering measures and much more expensive bikes as a result. Manufacturers will import less models because of the changes that will need to be made for the US market.

BTW, most motorcycle single-vehicle fatalities are the result of head injuries sustained in corners where it has been shown that displacement has a direct effect. Going in to hot and running off the road or hitting oncoming traffic happens more on faster, bigger bikes than it does on smaller bikes.

Also, if you think MSF is all about low-speed maneuvering, you need to watch a class. It is about rider education in the classroom and handling corners, braking and vision. Very little is to do with maneuvering.

"riding is more a skill of the eyes and mind than the hands and feet"
Straight out of the Rider's Courseguide for the Basic Rider's Course. You don't learn that shit on the farm on your brothers Honda 70 and you certainly don't learn how to drive from your parents, unless thay are trained professionals.

As a ridercoach, I must have heard "My husband/friend/dad told me NEVER use the front brake....." a hundred times. It takes a solid weekend to get some riders to start using the front brake once they have been cruising around with whatever knowitall idiot they ride with on their permit. Seriously, we get people arriving at MSF who have been riding for 3 years and they can't ride for shit. They can certainly talk though. They all talk like they are the best rider in the world until they can make it through the cornering without braking mid corner/going over the kerb/looking down etc. Ask any of the 15 or so MSF coaches on NESR and they will all tell you the same. it's an eye-opener to see what kind of rider we have on the streets because we allow people to ride on a permit on any bike they choose.

I could easily teach my 4 year old to ride. Teaching him to be a RIDER is a very different thing that many people don't grasp.

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Originally Posted by timmyho414

None taken.

Tier licensing may be good, I don't doubt that. I did it myself. Learned on a bicycle, then a CB125. I bough at CBR600F4 brand new in '01. I raced my 748 before I bought my 749R. I just don't think it should be mandatory. You can have your own opinion too. The difference is my opinion does not affect everyone else, your does.

My statistics were off memory. I'm pretty sure the last study done(Hurt, I just looked it up) which said 3/4 of accidents involved another vehicle, mostly cars. 2/3 of those the car violated the motorcycles right of way.

http://www.motorcycle-accidents.com/pages/stats.html

How does displacement or tier licensing change that?

I look forward to the new study which I believe is underway. AMA has been working to raise money for a new one. Hurt report was from the 70 or 80 and the road/drivers have changed a lot since then.

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Most new riders are not as sensible as you.

749R? snap! Don't let scottie near yours.

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Originally Posted by timmyho414

None taken.

Tier licensing may be good, I don't doubt that. I did it myself. Learned on a bicycle, then a CB125. I bough at CBR600F4 brand new in '01. I raced my 748 before I bought my 749R. I just don't think it should be mandatory. You can have your own opinion too. The difference is my opinion does not affect everyone else, your does.

My statistics were off memory. I'm pretty sure the last study done(Hurt, I just looked it up) which said 3/4 of accidents involved another vehicle, mostly cars. 2/3 of those the car violated the motorcycles right of way.

http://www.motorcycle-accidents.com/pages/stats.html

How does displacement or tier licensing change that?

I look forward to the new study which I believe is underway. AMA has been working to raise money for a new one. Hurt report was from the 70 or 80 and the road/drivers have changed a lot since then.

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Trust me, my opinion doesn't count for shit. lOL. I'm not even allowed to vote,

Yes, most motorcycle fatalities are from cars turning left. However, in single vehicle accidents it's cornering that kills riders. Also, smaller bikes brake quicker safer because they tend to be going slower and they have less mass to stop and prevent a skid.

Stepped license is def the way to go. If things haven't changed in Greece it used to be 15 for 50cc 17 for 125cc 18 for up to 250cc and 21 for anything with HP over 26/28