Just ride it up you pussy, you only live in Lowell :twofingerQuote:
Originally posted by Kham
i need another trackday. any offer to tow my bike up to Loudon?
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Just ride it up you pussy, you only live in Lowell :twofingerQuote:
Originally posted by Kham
i need another trackday. any offer to tow my bike up to Loudon?
good idea. i just need a buddy to drive up with my shit so i can prep the bike in the morning. that'll work.Quote:
Originally posted by Honclfibr
Just ride it up you pussy, you only live in Lowell :twofinger
who else is running trackday? i'v heard Teamdemon's trackday has too many people.
pfft, all you need can fit in a backpack. small tool kit, duct tape, gas money, maybe some cloths. wear all your gear & you're good to go. every track day i've done i've ridden at LEAST 1/2 an hour then hooked up w/ my trailer buddy somewhere on the way. you really don't need that much.Quote:
Originally posted by Kham
good idea. i just need a buddy to drive up with my shit so i can prep the bike in the morning. that'll work.
When someone calls and asks about the ERC (new suite) I tell them that if they are familiar with the BRC (beginner/basic) rider course, the exercises will look all too familiar as they are almost exactly the same, with a few exceptions, as those found in the second half of the beginner course.Quote:
Originally posted by Honclfibr
This seems odd. My impression was that the intermediate course was essentially a repeat of the riding portion of the beginner class, whereas the experienced course was a completely separate curriculum.
Greg, any chance we could get your friend at Ironstone to clarify this? I've been meaning to take the ERC for a while, but I'd like to know that it's a new curriculum. I've talked to people in the past who took it and got a lot out of it, and at the time said it was very differnet from the BRC course. Is this still the case?
Depending on your point of view, this may or may not be good news. Going back to my point of curriculum development and strategies of MSF, one has to wonder about their motivations and course value. MSF is market driven and is subsidized by the major motorcycle manufacturers, so guess what? MSF has some incentive to train as many motorcyclists for the manufacturers to buy their bikes. With the aging of the population you will see more middle aged riders returning to the sport on their cruisers and needing refresher classes.
My point of view is this (1) MSF courses concentrates on the basics, particularly in the ERC, of turning and braking, (2) MSF courses reinforce risk management and street strategies, and (3) MSF recognizes the legal liabilities site owners (such as myself) and state programs are exposed to both in "parking lot exercises" as well as (god forbid!) on street exercises (or track day similiarities) and develops exercises with these considerations in mind. Therefore many of those in this community see MSF courses as almost "insultingly elementary" (in some cases this may be true), however, if you think you are above criticism and are Rossi's peer, MSF courses will be of no value to you. If you think you would like to revisit the basics and build from there, MSF courses may be for you.
Please call us at 508-278-0172 to discuss. You are also invitied to contact Gene Carabine at RMV (state MREP coordinator) at 413-781-0633 to voice your concerns.
Thanks
Joe Proia
Joe knows how to tell it like it is.
My take is a bit broader in that I've taught many ERCs where even more advanced riders have walked away getting their money's worth. This comes from instructors who can identify and coach to that higher level, though. Simply teaching from the book will not net a whole lot of benefit from the top tier rider.
From instructing at many track days, I can also tell you that about half of the riders could benefit from an ERC with a top instructor. The basics are the foundation of good riding and with a weak foundation, there's not much to build on.
That was well put Joe.
I teach at both MSF and Trackdays. Like Dave, I think the ERC offers a more focused learning experience (for most people).
The focus on the basics is the ERCs STRENGTH IMO. Too many riders are trying to skip ahead to "advanced" technique (whatever that is) when their throttle control, cornering, and braking skills are weak at best.
Low speeds have a way of magnifying rider error, while higher speeds have a way of masking them. This may be why people get more satisfaction out of a trackday. They feel like they are riding better, when they are not. It also feels better to go faster on a sportbike.
Anyway, There's definitely a call for both types of practice for the rider who likes/wants to improve. You just need to adjust your expectations according to each venue.
This "debate" is like saying, "blondes are better than brunettes".
Or Beer is better than Rum.
My point?
I have taken the MSF courses. I have a lot of track experience.
I also have read a bunch of books on riding.
Sure.. a lot of it is repeat info, but that just helps reinforce things.
Like some have said... there is absolutely room for both Track Days and MSF type instruction, and I would encourage both.
If someone goes to MSF and doesn't feel they learned something, then that can be good (you already knew the material), or bad (the instructor didn't present well).
Brunettes are much better :D
All I am really looking for is techniques to deal with the fact that:
- Many ERC drills take place below 10mph
- Many sportbikes are geared such that they require slipping the clutch below 10mph (even stated in the owners manual)
- My ERC instructors VERY emphatically stated over and over that I was not allowed to slip the clutch in these drills
- When I followed the instructors directions the bike sputtered/stalled as it was practically at idle @ those speeds.
I basically got in a situation in the class where I was told I was going to fail the particular drill on the test if I touched the clutch going around a tight corner, and the bike couldn't ride that slow, when it started to stall I grabbed the clutch and the instructor proceeded to chew me out like R. Lee Ermey in full metal jacket.
What was I supposed to do?
Sportbikes aren't going away, with some of the bikes being geared for 100mph in first gear they are going to get harder and harder to ride at 5mph without slipping the clutch. I guess maybe this isn't a problem if sportriders are just skipping the class.
I guess it is fine to blame the manufacturers for selling so many bikes which misbehave at low speeds, or blame EPA for having our bikes run so lean that they surge/buck at low speed & low RPM, but someone has to deal with this.
what's a redhead in this new analogy?
Thanks, Tony, for your input. And I agree with you.Quote:
Originally posted by 35racer
This "debate" is like saying, "blondes are better than brunettes".
Or Beer is better than Rum.
My point?
I have taken the MSF courses. I have a lot of track experience.
I also have read a bunch of books on riding.
Sure.. a lot of it is repeat info, but that just helps reinforce things.
Like some have said... there is absolutely room for both Track Days and MSF type instruction, and I would encourage both.
If someone goes to MSF and doesn't feel they learned something, then that can be good (you already knew the material), or bad (the instructor didn't present well).
My major concern is that riders in this community understand what the MSF courses are and not lay blame on the local provider, for good or bad......................I didn't want to hear that Pioneer Valley and Ken Condon was teaching an ERC for more or less money than Ironstone and Joe Proia and Ken was doing this or that and my friend who took it at Ironstone and said it was nothing like what he heard Pioneer Valley was doing, because as part of a statewide network (MREP) we are all following the same script (MSF ERC suite). Period.......
Ice racing! :-)Quote:
What's a redhead?
Seriously, BenVFR. I teach the class on my Ducati, Ken on his VFR. I have to slip the clutch occasionaly. I've never told anyone not to. That's ridiculous. You do what is needed to control the bike. Clutch control. Anyway, I don't think I do ANY exercise at or below 10MPH.
I agreee, it's awkward, but that's why it magnifies rider errors. Your slightly out of your comfort zone.
A good rider can do this stuff amazingly smoothly and quickly. I'm not trying to diss you or anything, but it IS doable on nearly any bike.
Kham, I wanna do one soon. lets figure something out.Quote:
Originally posted by Kham
good idea. i just need a buddy to drive up with my shit so i can prep the bike in the morning. that'll work.
who else is running trackday? i'v heard Teamdemon's trackday has too many people.
-chr|s
That is fine, if that is allowed that is all I needed to hear. I got so mad after that I have continued to practice with the clutch, if the instructor had allowed me to do so I know I would have got more out of the class.Quote:
Originally posted by Paul_E_D
Ice racing! :-)
Seriously, BenVFR. I teach the class on my Ducati, Ken on his VFR. I have to slip the clutch occasionaly. I've never told anyone not to. That's ridiculous. You do what is needed to control the bike. Clutch control. Anyway, I don't think I do ANY exercise at or below 10MPH.
I agreee, it's awkward, but that's why it magnifies rider errors. Your slightly out of your comfort zone.
A good rider can do this stuff amazingly smoothly and quickly. I'm not trying to diss you or anything, but it IS doable on nearly any bike.
I may still take it again when I have $$ burning a hole in my wallet, I am not going around telling new(er) riders to avoid the MSF, Ironstone, or ERC if that is the impression anyone got.
Quote:
Originally posted by ironstone
Thanks, Tony, for your input. And I agree with you.
My major concern is that riders in this community understand what the MSF courses are and not lay blame on the local provider, for good or bad......................I didn't want to hear that Pioneer Valley and Ken Condon was teaching an ERC for more or less money than Ironstone and Joe Proia and Ken was doing this or that and my friend who took it at Ironstone and said it was nothing like what he heard Pioneer Valley was doing, because as part of a statewide network (MREP) we are all following the same script (MSF ERC suite). Period.......
I hear ya.
I'll stay out of that part of the discussion. :D
My problem was more with the comments implying one is "better" than the other or one is not needed.
I've got almost 30 years riding experience... and I learn something new every day.
It's been almost 15? years since my last MSF course and just yesterday I was out in a parking lot doing some of the exercises.
really? damn! my bike coast more than 5mph with clutch in. forget it.Quote:
Originally posted by benVFR
I basically got in a situation in the class where I was told I was going to fail the particular drill on the test if I touched the clutch going around a tight corner, and the bike couldn't ride that slow, when it started to stall I grabbed the clutch and the instructor proceeded to chew me out like R. Lee Ermey in full metal jacket.
are you still trying to learn multiplication table? :shaking head:Quote:
Originally posted by 35racer
It's been almost 15? years since my last MSF course and just yesterday I was out in a parking lot doing some of the exercises.
There's nothing that says you can't slip the clutch in any MSF drill. As a matter of fact, I suggest it as a way to deliver smooth drive through the tight u-turn box and the weave.
It was allowed/recommended for us in the u-turn box + weave, it was one of the other drills in the final test in which it was not allowed.
It was allowed on that same drill for the class, then "surpise" no clutch allowed for the final test. Just made it kind of annoying. I am not sure what you call the drill though. It was a slow/medium speed turn through 2 concentric curved lines in the pavement.
My bike is just really bad though... others I've rode are far easier to ride at those speeds. It is the major fault of the bike IMO.
pardon, i have stupid questions. what is the use for the u-turn-box exercise in the real world? let's say you'r expert in u-turn-box, you gonna be riding alot in the parking lot? is it really that fun?
One of the instructors posed the question "do you think anyone ever died because they couldn't ride a figure 8?"Quote:
Originally posted by Kham
pardon, i have stupid questions. what is the use for the u-turn-box exercise in the real world? let's say you'r expert in u-turn-box, you gonna be riding alot in the parking lot? is it really that fun?
I use to agree that the parking lot moves are a waste in the real world...
But there is actually quite a bit of "slow moving" stuff you do regularly (entering and exiting parking lots, gas stations, etc) where it's good to have complete control.
here's another view. what's the main reason people buy sport bike?Quote:
Originally posted by evile
One of the instructors posed the question "do you think anyone ever died because they couldn't ride a figure 8?"
I've never had reason to do 2 U-turns in opposite directions back to back.
BUT... I've been on multiple rides where the more experienced riders pull a u-turn and then have to wait while the other people do 3-4 point turns in the road.
Including a ride where I was the one pulling a U-turn and Kham was the one doing the 3-4 point turn. :poke:
On top of all that being able to do it minimizes your time where you are out in the middle of the road vulnerable. Yet at the same time when you are doing it as tight as the MSF class you are pretty commited and you aren't going to be able to make an emergency maneuver from that position...
I still can't do it all that well either, I would either just barely make it inside the box or hit the line. :(
your feet are on the ground exiting and entering parking lot or gas station. you have to stop first and look both ways.Quote:
Originally posted by 35racer
I use to agree that the parking lot moves are a waste in the real world...
But there is actually quite a bit of "slow moving" stuff you do regularly (entering and exiting parking lots, gas stations, etc) where it's good to have complete control.