Survey: Tiered Licensing or Self Control

KillBill, sounds like you are from NewHampshire?...ha ha..

I follow mostly the sentiment on here,...I don't think there should be legislation to what I can and cannot do to/with my own body (seatbelts, helmets...tiered-legislation for motorcycle use/riding/purchase) with THAT being said...

I think it IS a good idea over in the UK where you have to start out on like a 250cc cycle first, and then 'graduate' on to a 500cc bike, then a 750, then a litre bike...and you have to be on them for a period of time before you can move up...

The other side of that coin is that they ALSO restrict how much HP you can have with restrictor plates or bad EFI maps etc...and I think THAT stinks...I guess I can see both sides of this coin and the benefits and cons as well...

But...I would still vote NO LEGISLATION!

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Originally Posted by KawiSmurf650

I think my primary reason for being interested in a tier-based licensing program is that the manufacturers will then have an incentive to import their small displacement machines that I love so much. I really see myself having a blast on a YZF-125R, or a street-legal RS125. Maybe I'm alone in that regard, and maybe that's a bit of a selfish reason. But I also do have a problem with inexperienced riders jumping on the big guns to learn how to ride, so there's some merit to my vote.

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:plusone:

I really wish there were more small-displacement options in the US--I happen to like trying to ride a slow bike fast, but I also wish I could find something with fuel injection and modern suspension in a similar displacement and cost category.

Having only ridden the Nighthawk at the BRC, my Ninjette, and a couple of BMW 650s, I'm somewhat reluctant to comment on how bad it would have been for me (or anyone else) to start on a 600cc or liter sportbike. However, I did have a salesman try to put me on a bigger bike, because that's what he had in the warehouse (and was having trouble moving--apparently the purple paint didn't help). Had I not already spent a lot of time online researching a bike purchase, there's a damn good chance he could have sold me on that 600. That kind of behavior is, IMO, the biggest problem with the current system. If the folks selling bikes (both private-party and dealership) were more willing to steer beginners towards more forgiving bikes, even if it meant loosing sales, we'd see a lot less videos on Youtube of brandy-new sportbikes getting wadded up as they left the dealer parking lots.

I don't know how'd to intelligently enforce that via legislation, though. We have enough issues pulling off existing government programs successfully, that I find it hard to believe that we could pull off any kind of graduated-license program successfully. I am surprised that the dealerships don't get stuck holding the bag more often when they sell an unforgiving bike to an inexperienced rider, particularly in cases where the sales staff didn't try to steer the rider to another bike. The courts have upheld a reasonable expectation of the customer to get reasonable, domain-specific advice from
sales staff in other fields, but I've never heard of any similar cases with respect to motorcycles.

One thing I mentioned to Chris, and I think bears reapeating here as part of this discussion, is that there are a few interesting side effects of the tiered system.

Specifically, there is a large range of low displacement, or lower power motorcycles avalible for purchase - and often restrictor kits to limit the power of other motorcycles (these can be later removed when your licence is extended to a new tier)

Yes, you can still get in trouble on these of course, but hopefully it'll result in less drastic concequences, and be more forgiving of a slip of the wrist than a supersport. (It also helps to somewhat erode the 'small bike' stigma - 90% of people start out that way, so its not so looked 'down' upon.)

I do think it would be useful to have these kinds of machines avalible over here - there are a whole range of rather nice 125cc motorcycles that never see the light of day here. Give the beginner a few more choices, and you may find them opting for something less rocket-like, especially if the small-bike stigma can be eroded.

Besides, my old Honda CG125 moved decently quickly for its whopping 11bhp , and was built like a tank.

Edit - plus a lot of amusing 2smoke madness :)

I'm against a tierd licensing system, you have the cash to fork over to the dealer, buy whatever you want

a few young folks will die, big deal, with tierd licensing, people will still die


the only difference in a tierd licensing system would be availablity on 400cc and smaller bikes



let the wanker namby pamby states have a tiers system, no reason for licensing to become more than a state's issue that it is

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Originally Posted by kbroderick

...I did have a salesman try to put me on a bigger bike...That kind of behavior is, IMO, the biggest problem with the current system.

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I agree to a large extent on this point. I do know a few salesman, including the one that sold me my bike, that says he will do everything in his power to avoid selling a noob a ZX-10R or ZX-14, and he gets that particular request a lot. Told me of a situation where a 17 yr. old (on a permit) came in with his parents, kid said he wanted the ZX-10R, and parents, not knowing anything about bikes, were willing to buy it. Salesman told them how stupid fast and powerful the bike was, how it was "faster than a Ferrari," and the parents backed off the deal. Not sure what he did end up selling them, but I'm sure the kid wasn't happy.

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Originally Posted by RandyO

a few young folks will die, big deal...

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Jesus Randy, that's a little insensitive to some of the unfortunate accidents that have occurred over the last couple of months, don't ya think? :mope:

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Originally Posted by RandyO

the only difference in a tierd licensing system would be availablity on 400cc and smaller bikes

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This, quite frankly, is "the only difference" I'm concerned with, at least on a personal level. So thank you for agreeing with my point.

I didn't read any of this so I'm not sure if it's been brought up but what happens in the case of a private sale?

Do the same questions apply?

I did not vote in this thread but would appreciate some kind of tiered licensing program. While we can't erase stupid, we can help prevent it.

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Originally Posted by Jaynnus

And the concern from an instructors point of view....

Is that you no longer have a class full of people who want to take the class and who come with an open mind ready to learn. Instead you get the macho attitude filled guy (yes typically a guy!) that is required to do this course but will not really absorb the program and possibly hamper the learning for the others in the same class.

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We get those all the time in the military courses. They are mandated to take the course. You would be suprised what happens when you put a guy who owns a 1000rr on a 250 and he fucks up. They get humble pretty quickly.

For everyone that argues "freedom" you are going to have someone else that argues "responsiablity".

I say give them the freedom to choose from a bunch of bikes that are restricted by HP/Torque. As the experience/ability increases it can open up other avenues. You can get experience/ gain ability in a number of ways and show competence by taking a riding exam. (On the road with an instructor following you). Or on a track. If I can pass you on your literbike while I am on my Hawk than you don't desrve a literbike. :D

Sure there is a minority that can handle a literbike at 16 years old. The point is that they are a MINORITY and there are far too many idiots making poor choices on there own for poor reasons ("It looks cool, I want to be cool, a 1000 will make me cool so I can up chicks")

If you are so good and can handle a literbike then there should be no worries that you would pass the test. :D

I more see the problem as a social one. Americans want the biggest and the fastest. If we can work to change minds that a Ninja 250 is "cool" then we wouldn't have a problem.

Question: Why is it that older/experience riders many times want smaller bikes??

I would rather ride a slow bike fast than a fast bike slow.

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Originally Posted by JettaJayGLS

Eh, survival of the fittest.

It would be nice to have someone come in and say something, but different strokes for different folks.

If a 6'3" guy came in and they tried to start him off on an ex500 (which is PERFECTLY LEGIT) is it going to be the same for a 5'2" 115lb guy? Or a 4'5" girl? What if the 6'3" guy has never ridden anything, but teh 5'2" guy is a professional motocross race? To many variables to draw a line.

I think wearing full gear for you and your passenger should be made into a law. I don't wear leather pants everyday, but if it was law, I would do it. That would keep a lot of the squids off bikes that do it to look cool, and keep girl passengers off bikes dressed in barely anything, despite how great it is to look at them. That is a VERY plausible idea, and think it could be run with. Plus, you can't hide not wearing a jacket.

Now, I don't think the law has to say it needs to be leather jacket, leather pants, track boots, and gauntlet gloves.

But some re-inforced jackets, weather it be mesh, textile, or leather. The same for pants whether it be Denim, the firemans hose pants, or leather. Some sort of gloves that at least cover your hand, and boots over your ankle.

I think this will send a lot of people away from bikes, but it is a perfectly legitimate law. I have friends that laugh at me for always putting my jacket on even when its super hot out. They don't own a jacket, and don't even use my spare if i offer it to them.

There are plenty of people that wouldn't ride a bike if they found out that they needed to spend an additional 500 bucks on gear to ride a bike, and they are the people that shouldn't be on bikes.

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Not a bad idea about the gear BUT...

The military mandates riders to wear the gear and we still get 18y/o kids buying literbikes and crashing em (even after taking the BRC). We alos get 30 year olds buying HUGE crusiers that are too big for them and crashing those as well. So it isn't just a sportbike thing.

You all know how I feel about gear... :lol:

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Originally Posted by Doc

You all know how I feel about gear... :lol:

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wife beater, shorts and flip flops right?

in FL it's a law anyone under 21 must take the MSF course...i took it at 16. there was a great age range of riders. everyone was eager to learn...even those of us "forced to be there" by the state.

than again i'm noy opposed to some sort of tierd licensing program. fourtunatly i came from a riding family and was started out right...EX250 at 16 (no riding experance prior to that though.

excpecting morons to take responsibilty for the sames is like waiting for a pig to shit gold. that's why we have state laws. becasue some times they need to do something to keep the idits safe. cause you can't rely on the idiots to do it.

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Originally Posted by KawiSmurf650

Jesus Randy, that's a little insensitive to some of the unfortunate accidents that have occurred over the last couple of months, don't ya think? :mope:

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you lookin for sensitivity

maybe on another forum

as far as I'm concerned, my rights are more important than the life of someone trying to prove Darwins theory of evolution, you can't legislate intelligence

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Originally Posted by g®eg

discussion (similar) as it relates to the military from ADV

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I didn't read the whole thing (yet) but it looks like it went from a "What can be done" to a "what they shouldn't do".

It is also interesting to note that everyone went right at young guys on sportbikes. That is not the military motorcycling communties only problem. There are alot of crusier riders in beanies riding from bar to bar.

Another point... I think ALOT of new riders think they are a better rider than they actually are. Even if you have been riding for a few years, you think you are a good rider, you give tips and pointers to your buddies and one day you get smoked in a corner by a guy on a 250. (I know I did). It took me getting to the track for me to fully realize just how slow I am. (But I am getting better).

Good Start on the Marine side.

I want to get this for my Military MSF classes.

http://semperride.com/

This says it best.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cZNlraF0xec


it's true for women too.

And every one does the speed limit. :spit:

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Originally Posted by Jerrinator

I think it IS a good idea over in the UK where you have to start out on like a 250cc cycle first, and then 'graduate' on to a 500cc bike, then a 750, then a litre bike...and you have to be on them for a period of time before you can move up...

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actually, in the UK you can start out on a restricted bigger bike, they made a 33hp restricted version of the SV650 for the UK

I find it rather LOLrific that someone who posts rides and makes it clear they don't expect people to wear gear and who doesn't wear gear himself is saying it all comes down to personal responsibility and judgment. I don't mean this as a personal attack, nor am I preaching ATGATT, but I think that kind of disregard for your own personal safety makes this type of thread almost laughable.

I thank my lucky stars every day that I found NESR and people that mentored me, including teaching me the intelligence of wearing my gear (and giving me great deals on said gear).

I haven't read all the posts closely so my opinion may have already been stated.

Since we're talking injury or death I like to look at how the majority of motorcycle accidents occur before making a decision. If we break most motorcycle accidents down they fall into two categories. Single vehicle or multiple vehicle accidents.

Single vehicle accidents are mostly caused by riders going into a turn too hot and not being able to remain on the road.

Multiple vehicle accidents involving a motorcycle are mostly caused by motorists not seeing the rider or perhaps misjudging the speed at which rider is approaching. They could also be caused by a rider not being able to stop in time to avoid another stopped vehicle.

As I reexamine these two categories, first with a rider on a scooter and second with a rider on a liter bike, i don't see how they avoid either.

The only thing that might help both of these situations is two types of rider experience. Handling of the bike which can be taught by MSF courses, riding clinics or track days and street experience where riders learn about making themselves more visible, leaving proper distances and planning escape routes. Again, not much of this has to do with the horsepower of the motorcycle.

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Originally Posted by KillBill

"Live Free or Die"

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Unfortunately that's whats happening.

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Originally Posted by Ćheese

The only thing that might help both of these situations is two types of rider experience. Handling of the bike which can be taught by MSF courses, riding clinics or track days and street experience where riders learn about making themselves more visible, leaving proper distances and planning escape routes. Again, not much of this has to do with the horsepower of the motorcycle.

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I disagree. You can go into a corner alot faster on a liter bike/ big cruiser than you can on a scooter. :poke:

Thanks so much everyone for all the replies. I'm gonna take what we have here and combine it with some other feedback and put something together.

I know its a heated debate/subject and appreciate all the honest feedback! I'm gonna try my damnest to stay as open minded and objective when i put this piece together!

thanks again!!

-chris (leaf)

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Originally Posted by Jaynnus

And the concern from an instructors point of view....

Is that you no longer have a class full of people who want to take the class and who come with an open mind ready to learn. Instead you get the macho attitude filled guy (yes typically a guy!) that is required to do this course but will not really absorb the program and possibly hamper the learning for the others in the same class.

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:plusone:

In Florida you have to pass a driving test at the DMV. I have seen way to many people that talk themselves into being the greatest rider just drop the bike lean to hard into a turn. Not make the u -turns and hit curbs. Safety starts with education.
:kix:

Paison

I think ultimately, with the dealer waiver, the BRC PLUS a more stringent test and the parent/rider responsibility, the rider should have had the message sufficiently pounded into their head.

I added the plus because I felt that the BRC was too damn easy to pass. I watched one girl drop her bike twice during the test. Now, I don't know a single thing about teaching a BRC (I certainly would like to in the future), but I would think that since the course is focused on making safer riders, it should also be weeding out people that aren't quite ready yet either. I could be wrong and if so somebody please clue me in.

With the hours/mile thing, I don't see any reasonable way of enforcing the rule. One could flat out lie about their experience or worst case, we could have some kind of GPS unit tacked to our bikes. Not good.