Need tips on MA speeding laws

[xxaarraa]

Recently, I was pulled over on 93 South by a statie. Ticket says "80 on a 55 'estimated'" No radar, no laser, just 'estimated' Not that it is a valid defense, but there were 2-3 cars ahead of me in my lane when I got pulled over, all going faster, including some green Subaru station wagon. I feel like I got pulled over because I was driving a sporty car and stood out.

Anyway, its been 10 years since my last speeding ticket and I haven't had to fight one in MA (yes, going to trial tomorrow). Any loop holes, tips or best practices? My license plate is misspelled on the ticket, it also says "estimated". In the olden days in other states, you could go in there and ask for proof that the officer's radar gun or speedo was recently calibrated. I am not sure if those tricks have all been shut down and what goes in MA.

Can anyone share any tips please? Need to be in court tomorrow, anything you can throw my way today would be very helpful. Thanks a lot.

[cdovego]

How does one challenge "estimated" speed?

[SVRACER01]

Wirelessly posted (GS3)

I guess I would asked how the speed was estimated.and then maybe ask what he estimated the cars in front of you were traveling at. Maybe while hes at it he can estimate your weight. Ok maybe not that last part. But id definitely ask how many cars you were traveling with etc.
His estimation may have been radar based on a slower vehicle you were passing. Maybe he just hates your car.

[jasnmar]

Was he pacing you, or was he sitting on the roadside?

[Petorius]

https://malegislature.gov/Laws/Gener...XIV/Chapter90/

http://www.motorists.org/ma/tic.html

http://www.mit.edu/~jfc/ma.html

I had these links saved from when I did this. Also, your first 2 points in MA cannot affect your insurance premiums, so dont worry too much.

[xxaarraa]

Was he pacing you, or was he sitting on the roadside?

I'm not sure. He was sitting in what turns out to be a usual spot (right side of the route 24 exit on 93 south) a few miles before 95.

He must have paced me for just a bit but his lights were on quickly and I pulled over.

[jasnmar]

Different tactics depending on pacing vs stationary...

Pacing:
Question his speedo (or whatever method of speed notification he was using). The last time it was calibrated. Records of that calibration. Maintenance performed on the vehicle / item since the calibration was done (if it was a speedo, have the tires been changed?).
At what distance did he pace you and for how long.
When was the last formal training he received on estimating a vehicles speed by pacing?
What are the standards by which a vehicles speed can be determined by pacing. Where those followed?
Within what % can pacing be used to determine the actual speed of the vehicle (there is some tolerance, at a minimum you can argue that your ticket is at the lower bound of that tolerance).

Stationary:
Were there other cars in the area? Were any of those cars similar to yours? Was traffic generally traveling above or below the posted speed on the road?
Have him estimate other things like the length and width of your car (in inches). Provide him with actual #'s and that's a statement of how good his estimates are (speed is nothing but on estimate of length and time, if you can't estimate length exactly, you can't estimate speed exactly).
Start the stopwatch on your phone when you case is called. When in discussion have him estimate how long this matter has been discussed. Again, speed is length and time. If he's off he can't reliably estimate time and his estimate of speed could be off by as much.
Ask what reference points he used to estimate your speed. What method did he use to evaluate how long it took your car to pass by those reference points.

I don't live in nor have I ever had to fight a ticket in MA. This is just general how to fight a speeding ticket stuff. MA specific stuff I can't help with.

Partially your goal is to be more annoying than it is worth to have you pay for the ticket (but don't be annoying in an annoying way, be annoying in a nice way, but really waste everyone's time). If it's going to require 6 man hours of the "court" to get $100 for a ticket it isn't worth that time. If it takes 10 minutes, it's worth it.

[luukasama]

About a year or so ago, I was stopped on Jamaicaway going into Boston, supposedly doing 51 in a 30 mile zone. I was going about 35/40 maybe, and with the amount of traffic (it was during rush hour), it wouldn't have been possible to go that fast. I was also following behind an SUV, in the right lane. The officer stopped me right underneath the 25 mph limit sigh too He was situated in a street perpendicular, and opposite of where he got me. Stopped both me and the SUV, but let the SUV go and gave me a ticket. Was something like $210~$250.

Sent in the ticket for a hearing. It was set in a room of 10 people going in at once, and speaking to a magistrate lady who forgave or enforced the ticket. When it came to my turn, I told exactly what happened. I was preparing to ask about the radar and such, but 1) the cop wasn't there, as it wasn't a 1 on 1 hearing and 2) how would the magistrate lady even answer those questions? I luckily got the benefit of a doubt and let off scot free. Now, one thing I found incredible is that they picked up my speeding ticket back in 2003. That was 10 years ago!! I thought they scrubbed those records after 7, or is it forever on your record? Also, can you actually argue about the accuracy of their lidar, whatever, if you're not facing the officer who wrote you a ticket?

To me, it just seems very confrontational to ask about that, though you do have a right to question it. Is there a way to sound nice about it, but stick their noses in their own doodoo pile?

[Pittenger5]

When the cop tells his side of the story, don't retort with, "that'll do pig, that'll do".

Best advice I can give you

[Kurlon]

Your record is your record, insurance is only allowed to look back a certain number of years.

[xxaarraa]

Thank you everybody - jasmar and pistorius in particular. I will follow your advice to the letter and tell you what happens tomorrow morning!

[Degsy]

let us know how it goes. Good luck.

[tls25rs]

These don't have much to do with the OP questions but I saw them and have some history with this stuff so figured I would comment

Also, your first 2 points in MA cannot affect your insurance premiums, so dont worry too much.

First ticket in MA doesn't necessarily cost you any more for your insurance per se but it does wind up with you getting less of a discount on your insurance therefore costing you more. 6 years clear driving history gives you a certain level of discount, a single ticket can cause your discount to be reduced until the ticket "falls" off of your record with regard to insurance.

link to how the surcharge/credit is worked out http://www.mass.gov/ocabr/docs/doi/l...gs/211-134.pdf kinda wordy and annoying to figure out but the info is in there.

link to pretty good clear explanation of how points now, post 2006, work in MA http://www.sullivanif.com/index.aspx...MA-SDIP-Points

I thought they scrubbed those records after 7, or is it forever on your record?

Police can see your driving history from the date it began. Insurance companies in MA go back 6 years from the start date of the policy to determine surcharges or credits.

[Garandman]

What is a "sporty" car? Compared to a 4 cyl Subaru wagon almost anything is "sporty." Are you driving a cop magnet?

If you want to get all legal eagle, hire a lawyer. If you try that you will sound ridiculous and the Magistrate will most likely side with the cop because it will sound like bullshit.

The best way to address it is to go in and tell them your speed was "momentary" if it was, or that you were on your way to work, if you were, and don't usually speed. And that you haven't had any driving offenses in a long time, and beg for a break. Which is the truth.

There will be one MSP officer there handling all the cases. He doesn't really care if yours gets tossed. I've been to magistrate sessions where more than half the tickets get tossed, and ones where almost none are.

In my experience 80mph is the "Magic number."

[burtonboarder23]

Police can see your driving history from the date it began. Insurance companies in MA go back 6 years from the start date of the policy to determine surcharges or credits.

From what i have experienced with living in multiple states etc. Cops can only see as far back as the date you got a license in their state. If they want to dig deeper, they have to call it in. At least that's what I was told by a MA cop that pulled me over and asked how my record was.

[maxim_X]

Understand that you go infront of a clerk magistrate first. There you will have a few minutes to plead your case to him or her (maybe some other people present as well) with their reference being the ticketing officers notes. If you don't like the outcome of that hearing you can fight that and they will schedual another date. The second date will be infront of a judge in court and with the ticketing officer. If he doesn't show there it's usually thrown out. But, the second date is the one that you would question the officer with the above advice. Also if you want things like calibration records you need to submit that request to the court before your court date but after the magistrate hearing, if you don't get off there. I would do it at the court right after the first hearing while your there. Or lawyer up. Tickets suck.

[BMMCBR]

Understand that you go infront of a clerk magistrate first. There you will have a few minutes to plead your case to him or her (maybe some other people present as well) with their reference being the ticketing officers notes. If you don't like the outcome of that hearing you can fight that and they will schedual another date. The second date will be infront of a judge in court and with the ticketing officer. If he doesn't show there it's usually thrown out. But, the second date is the one that you would question the officer with the above advice. Also if you want things like calibration records you need to submit that request to the court before your court date but after the magistrate hearing, if you don't get off there. I would do it at the court right after the first hearing while your there. Or lawyer up. Tickets suck.

This. I always see people giving court advice, when you don't even need to worry about that until after you see the magistrate/prosecutor. The only times you go straight to court is for serious offenses (reckless and the like). Worry about pleading with the prosecutor first, then if you don't like his decision, build your court case.

[xxaarraa]

Got back from court, after seeing the magistrate. Here's the gist of it:

Me: thanks for your time and opportunity today to present my case. My license plate is misspelled on ticket and it says 'estimated' so I'd like to understand how accurate the officers estimation was

Magistrate: license plate could say elephant it doesn't matter. How fast do you think you were going?

Me: it doesn't matter what I think I was doing, its for the officer to prove I was doing 80. I was going speed of traffic, 3 cars ahead of me, plenty of space between us. Can the officer tell me which cars were ahead of me by any chance?

Magiatrate: officer is represented by gentleman here, you have to go to trial to speak to officer. How fast were you going?

Me: I don't know. It was a pleasant evening, I had NPR on radio. No one was in a rush.

Magistrate (he's laughing by now): OK you seem like a straight up guy (I had my best brooks brothers suit on, tie) I'm finding you responsible for 70 on a 55 (ticket was 80 on 55).

Me: I appreciate that, but that's not true and unfortunately I can't accept that. I feel like I'm wrongfully targeted because I drive a nice car, and that's unfair.

Magistrate: what car do you drive?

Me: so and so

Magistrate: that's not nice, I wouldn't drive that.

Me: I understand, but its nice to me, and it sure as heck stands out. Can officer tell me how long it is, for instance?

Prosecutor: officer not here, but that's a small car.

Me: Yes, it is. I'd like to appeal.

So I paid the $50 court fee and I'm going back in august for trial before judge. Both magistrate and prosecutor were nice guys and smiled at me as I walked out. Worst case, I drag out the financial penalty of the ticket on my insurance. Best case, I get it dismissed if the officer doesn't show.

Thanks for all your help, keep you all posted.

[Pittenger5]

Shouldve answered, Id estimate I was doing 55.

[aldend123]

Me: it doesn't matter what I think I was doing, its for the officer to prove I was doing 80. I was going speed of traffic, 3 cars ahead of me, plenty of space between us. Can the officer tell me which cars were ahead of me by any chance?

So he clocked the subaru up front at 80, and estimated the guy following him in the red ferrari a few cars back going "speed of traffic" was also going 80.

How much is the ticket worth to you, when you account for long-term cost of insurance? Might be time for a lawyer.

[Garandman]

Shouldve answered, Id estimate I was doing 55.

He's going to go to court, the judge is going to see he previously testified his speed was "I don't know" and find him guilty.

Now we can speculate on the nature of a "sporty car." What is the automotive equivilent of a "Gixxah!" SRT4? Other options.

[xxaarraa]

Lol at the speculation. Very entertaining.

When I go to judge, is the current offer of '70 on 55' a given, or since I'm appealing, does that get voided and judge can do what he pleases? Also, can I get a continuance for trial or not?

[Garandman]

Lol at the speculation. Very entertaining.

When I go to judge, is the current offer of '70 on 55' a given, or since I'm appealing, does that get voided and judge can do what he pleases? Also, can I get a continuance for trial or not?

When they asked you what your speed was and you said "I don't know," you made yourself into dead meat.

[Degsy]

should have said 55. he was offering you both an easy out. when you say 'i don't know" its tough for him to find not responsible.

[tsorfas]

What is a "sporty" car? Compared to a 4 cyl Subaru wagon almost anything is "sporty." Are you driving a cop magnet?

If you want to get all legal eagle, hire a lawyer. If you try that you will sound ridiculous and the Magistrate will most likely side with the cop because it will sound like bullshit.

The best way to address it is to go in and tell them your speed was "momentary" if it was, or that you were on your way to work, if you were, and don't usually speed. And that you haven't had any driving offenses in a long time, and beg for a break. Which is the truth.

There will be one MSP officer there handling all the cases. He doesn't really care if yours gets tossed. I've been to magistrate sessions where more than half the tickets get tossed, and ones where almost none are.

In my experience 80mph is the "Magic number."

Besides the hire a lawyer part that was the worst advice ever on a speeding ticket.