Braking technique advice

[Kurlon]

Yeah, I can just imagine how communicators with my wife would go at the track...

me:"Ok, railing into 1, I think I can get this guy before the bowl..."
wife:...
me:"Bo-yah! No DFL for me!"
wife:...
me:"Next target in sight, and he's going wide into 12, perfect! I'll just slip up his inside"
wife:"Damn it DB, pull your pants up, I'm not impressed."
me:"WHA?!"
Bruce:"And the red flag comes out. It looks like something happened to rider 771 at the apex of 12, he just stood the bike up and drove himself and 399 Seth Loli right into the airfence."

[a13x]

I have experimented with communicators on track with my wife and it proved to be an excellent tool. .

JRO and I have used them as well on the track. They rule. Great teaching tool.

[The Snowman]

I have experimented with communicators on track with my wife and it proved to be an excellent tool. As much as I'd like to do more of this, it is logistically difficult to do at a typical track day. A track school can do this, because the instructor to student ratio is very low, however this means that the cost is very high.

Maybe it's something for Tony's, BoMo, and LAPS to consider. Offer it to a few people every track day for an additional fee and have the most experienced riders, who KNOW the track they are riding on, do the communicated instruction.

Might be worth trying.

[Fitz]

Yea, you can't NOT trailbrake in T11 since you are never truly straight up and down on the bike.

*cough* I... uh... straighten the bike up... brake.... and then tip in. Too damn paranoid to brake leaned over there. Conversely, I'll find myself trail braking in three occasionally as I find myself turning in before I'm fully off the brakes. I have -no- ability to sense when or if the front end is going to tuck on me. I can feel the rear moving occasionally and frankly, I'm not too much of a fan. Picked up a cr125r to play on the frozen river this winter hoping to get more comfortable with a bike moving underneath me but it doesn't appear the timing on that is going to work out at least for this year.

Fitz

[butcher bergs]

Chris, FWIW, a speed-junkie, for the most part, should be able to pick up on the sound of the front if they are the type of person who can remain aware. Everyone is different though.

During my 2nd track day ever down at VIR on my 929 I got to hear the front start to scrub going into T7 on the North Course. It started as a slight howl as the rear began to lift. The key is being smooth. As it's been mentioned here already, don't ever jab the brakes on or off.


EDIT: As far as trail braking in T11, make sure you hug the left side curb otherwise you hit a series of bumps and, well, eventually it won't turn out as you wanted. Personally, I just assume going thru there off the brakes and use lean angle and engine braking to scrub speed.

[a13x]

*cough* I... uh... straighten the bike up... brake.... and then tip in. Too damn paranoid to brake leaned over there.

Ever watch guys going the same speed you are thru T11? I bet the bike isn't 100% up-and-down at the point you feel like it is. Same with T6.

That's something pretty unique about Loudon actually. Everyone that rides there is learning to trail brake whether they know it or not. Loudon has very very few corners where you brake totally up and down.... Turn 3 is the only one that really springs to mind as far as a corner where you are perfectly vertical in a hard-braking zone.

[The Snowman]

That's something pretty unique about Loudon actually. Everyone that rides there is learning to trail brake whether they know it or not. Loudon has very very few corners where you brake totally up and down.... Turn 3 is the only one that really springs to mind as far as a corner where you are perfectly vertical in a hard-braking zone.

Actually a good observation. I am definitely guilty of braking after tipping on most of the corners, whether aware of it or not.

[Ken C]

Maybe it's something for Tony's, BoMo, and LAPS to consider. Offer it to a few people every track day for an additional fee and have the most experienced riders, who KNOW the track they are riding on, do the communicated instruction.

Might be worth trying.

The trick is to know when, how and what to communicate. Not all instructors or people that know the track well can do this. The last thing you need is someone chattering on, trying to explain what you should do when you feel like you're on the edge.

[The Snowman]

The trick is to know when, how and what to communicate. Not all instructors or people that know the track well can do this. The last thing you need is someone chattering on, trying to explain what you should do when you feel like you're on the edge.

Maybe offered to someone who has a certain number of days on the track who wants to hone the skills that they already have?

[Ken C]

Maybe offered to someone who has a certain number of days on the track who wants to hone the skills that they already have?

Sure. It can be used to help anyone.

[Manny]

Take Doug Polen's 1on1 School if you ever get the chance - well worth the $

You will learn how to trail brake and why (as you're doing it) with him talking to you in your helmet... and its a safe way to learn the technique

I'd say about 2/3 of my learning with him was related to trail braking.

He really has you on the brakes right to the apex and then back on the gas.

It gives you an amazing amount of control over the "tightness" of your line and a bit more or less brake really helps bring the bike where you want it. The problem is it is incredibly delicate. A little too much and you tuck the front. Very sensitive.

[Chippertheripper]

i like this idea. one of the best things about a td is hunting down the cr's and getting feedback. which i can only hope will make my dumb ass faster, smoother, sexier...you get the idea.

[RyanNicholson]

its funny, i know this isn't 100% about trail braking and stuff... but when I first started to really figure out how to ride at a quick pace it was all because of ONE thing someone said to me over beers sitting around a fire at the track...

"Once you've got the line pretty much figured out, the only way to be faster is to get on the brakes later, get on the gas sooner... and no matter what you think you aren't doing either hard enough"

the key to it is figuring out how, and without progressively pushing yourself you can't learn that. That's what makes this sport so god damn fun and addicting.

[Rambunctous]

I can only experiment with it in T1 and T3. I started just this year around the 6th weekend. Very hard to be consistent with it though. Sure with practice and tracktime it will come easier. Very taxing when I also got to not let revs drop below 8 thou.

[OreoGaborio]

I can't believe no one posted this yet

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q-cPa..._embedded#at=2

[Paul_E_D]

Yea, you can't NOT trailbrake in T11 since you are never truly straight up and down on the bike.

If only this were true! All the guys who stand it up to brake for 11 are a rolling hazard. Especially amateurs, as there will be fast guys trying to lap them and if they meet in 11 it's not pretty. 2 bikes trying to go in different directions through a bottleneck is dicey.

I was guilty of it as pretty much everyone starts that way, but as soon as I bumped I saw that I needed to change that asap.

[Tricky Mike]

I'd say about 2/3 of my learning with him was related to trail braking.

He really has you on the brakes right to the apex and then back on the gas.

It gives you an amazing amount of control over the "tightness" of your line and a bit more or less brake really helps bring the bike where you want it. The problem is it is incredibly delicate. A little too much and you tuck the front. Very sensitive.

Yup. I *thought* I was trail braking before I rode with Doug. The effect is has over your mid-corner line control is amazing. You're right, though. very delicate and when it goes it just goes without warning.

[Paul_E_D]

Here's the rub, if you have directional control over your line mid corner, your still a long way off the limit. This means you're killing momentum and making the bike work harder accelerating out of the corner.

Entry speed should climb until there is virtually one line and little to no traction left for correction. Direction is set by one steering input at turn in and then adjusted only through throttle application. At that pace, trail braking is still important, but it's not quite as powerful a tool as it is when you are below the limit.

I actually think once the bike is at full lean brakes are a total negative UNLESS the next corner is slower than the one you are in.

[Kurlon]

If only this were true! All the guys who stand it up to brake for 11 are a rolling hazard. Especially amateurs, as there will be fast guys trying to lap them and if they meet in 11 it's not pretty. 2 bikes trying to go in different directions through a bottleneck is dicey.

I was guilty of it as pretty much everyone starts that way, but as soon as I bumped I saw that I needed to change that asap.

Well crap, I KNOW I'm guilty of this. During the Penguin school my instructor was big on making sure we made a straight shot into 11, I was assuming to give us a braking zone. I'm going to have to rethink that turn now.

[Paul_E_D]

Out of 10 and into 11 makes one big S turn. If you can just stand it up a little less than straight up and down going into 11, it's easier to practice the braking/downshift with like 10 degrees of lean and as your entry speed goes up, so will the lean angle. The back likes to step out during that downshift while leaned over, so it teaches you good clutch control/timing as well.

[CEO]

If only this were true! All the guys who stand it up to brake for 11 are a rolling hazard. Especially amateurs, as there will be fast guys trying to lap them and if they meet in 11 it's not pretty. 2 bikes trying to go in different directions through a bottleneck is dicey.

I was guilty of it as pretty much everyone starts that way, but as soon as I bumped I saw that I needed to change that asap.

It was real bad in NV too... ESPECIALLY in the GT races... holy shit did I almost asspack some people.

[butcher bergs]

I actually think once the bike is at full lean brakes are a total negative UNLESS the next corner is slower than the one you are in.

Couldn't agree more.

You may be able to get away with it a few times but ultimately once you start unsettling the chassis it will eventually require your full attention at some point because now you're trying to balance your inputs with your increased lean angle while navigating the upcoming turn(s). That can be alot to manage, even in a track day setting.

I'm gonna go out on a limb and say that if you're truly going to explore trail braking then you'd better have some spare parts nearby. If you want to find the limits you have to exceed them at some point. Sometimes you win, sometimes you lose. One thing's for sure, always try to save it.

[BLACK SQUIRREL]

You will learn this on the track Not the internet. I learned my limits of trail braking by going in too Hot.

[a13x]

Well crap, I KNOW I'm guilty of this. During the Penguin school my instructor was big on making sure we made a straight shot into 11, I was assuming to give us a braking zone. I'm going to have to rethink that turn now.

Josh,

Eric Wood will tell you 'it's a straight shot into T11' but as I said the reality is the bike IS NOT straight up and down (like it is in the braking chute for T3). It's straighter up and down than it was prior to you 'standing it up' but it's still not perfectly vertical. Hence why I said you can't help but trail brake into T11 due to the nature of the corner and preceding corner.

Here's what I mean. Scott and I are both in the braking zone of T11 where you 'make it a straight shot'. However notice we are both not technically straight up and down? We are both slightly leaned over and braking. We just passed the left curbing and the right curbing is coming up.



Compared to T3 where we are all straight up and down (don't mind rear tire)

[Kurlon]

Would the fact that initially I was on a slow ass bike, and slow through 10 so I wasn't drifting wide out of 10, and could eat a sandwich on my way to 11 contribute to my having time to go in to 11 straight up and down?

Still felt like I was slow enough on the KTM that trying to make a big 'S' out of 10 and 11 was excessive actually.