Corner speed

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Originally Posted by RyanNicholson

I just realized that the way I explained it almost sounds like I'm encouraging someone to park it in the corners. Thats not what I meant at all... but usually where I've found more speed, or seen a difference between myself and faster riders... this is where they're hiding it in one way or another.

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Exactly, this is why I think it makes sense to pursue corner speed first. Once you are close to maxing that out, you go back to the beginning and figure out how to get IN the corner faster without giving away that speed, then find work on getting OUT fast.

I'm sure there are other ways to get there, but that was my process and it worked well for me.

I also saw a lot of "stupid fast" guys in my days. The Jesus comes to mind...

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Originally Posted by Paul_E_D

Exactly, this is why I think it makes sense to pursue corner speed first. Once you are close to maxing that out, you go back to the beginning and figure out how to get IN the corner faster without giving away that speed, then find work on getting OUT fast.

I'm sure there are other ways to get there, but that was my process and it worked well for me.

I also saw a lot of "stupid fast" guys in my days. The Jesus comes to mind...

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Thats why I corrected myself after rereading... its important to realize how much speed you can cary through a corner, then learn to get down to that speed later and back up from it sooner. But, its the second part where I personally tend to find the most gains because of what Pete explained. Thats what I was trying to get at.

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Originally Posted by Paul_E_D

Exactly, this is why I think it makes sense to pursue corner speed first. Once you are close to maxing that out, you go back to the beginning and figure out how to get IN the corner faster without giving away that speed, then find work on getting OUT fast.

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Agreed.

It's also one of the safer ways to do it as that's the slowest part of the corner. Concenrating on entry and exit before mid-corner speed can be a more dangerous approach. Speeds are higher, and as Ryan said earlier, so is the skill required to do it safely and proficiently.

Plus it's just the natural approach... I think we've all seen riders that are new to the track practically rolling off at the start/finish line, yet getting or almost getting a knee down.

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Originally Posted by RyanNicholson

Thats why I corrected myself after rereading... its important to realize how much speed you can cary through a corner, then learn to get down to that speed later and back up from it sooner. But, its the second part where I personally tend to find the most gains because of what Pete explained. Thats what I was trying to get at.

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Word. I smelled what you were cookin.

Nope, it read correctly to me.

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Originally Posted by wiggeywackyo

The shit slingfest has got me thinking and I didn't want to throw that gem off track so here it is:

Given ideal conditions, what parameters define the fastest corner speed? Lean angle and tires correct? On any given bike, there will be a point where you can lean it no further. So would two riders with the same lean angle be carrying the same corner speed? How about a fast guy and slow guy using the same lean angle with identical body position? What is the difference?

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This is a question worth a lot more than a paragraph.....

#1) Traction. More grip=more speed. We all know this. Tires are one of the biggest factors....but there are many more. The biggest influence outside of your tires are your inputs on the bike (not just body position - which matters...how you squeeze the bars, where your pressure points on the bike are, weight distribution front/rear etc..), which can have a huge affect on grip. Two riders - same bike, same speed, same tires, same lean angle....one crashes and the other one doesn't. Has anyone ever seen this happen? ... I thought so.

90% of what happens out there is a result of rider inputs. This why some guys are able to go faster than others. The biggest limiting factor is what we do to the bike. The lessons on how to maximize grip with technique are endless....which is one reason racing is so addicting.

Methods. The first thing you need to do is to work towards maximum roll speed, as this affects everything. How can you figure out what the latest brake marker is if you have not established how fast you can roll through a corner?...this is putting the cart before the horse. Also, roll speed has a huge affect on how much you can roll on. The faster the bike is rolling, the more throttle input it can handle. So again, you need to get your roll speed up first in order to really establish what maximium roll on can be.

The trick is to couple maximizing roll, entrance and exit speed with smooth and effective body inputs that maximize grip and feedback. Doing everything as hard and and fast as you can without causing any rapid changes in tire load.... let the fun begin.

:twothumb:

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Originally Posted by Woodcraft

This is a question worth a lot more than a paragraph.....

#1) Traction. More grip=more speed. We all know this. Tires are one of the biggest factors....but there are many more. The biggest influence outside of your tires are your inputs on the bike (not just body position - which matters...how you squeeze the bars, where your pressure points on the bike are, weight distribution front/rear etc..), which can have a huge affect on grip. Two riders - same bike, same speed, same tires, same lean angle....one crashes and the other one doesn't. Has anyone ever seen this happen? ... I thought so.

90% of what happens out there is a result of rider inputs. This why some guys are able to go faster than others. The biggest limiting factor is what we do to the bike. The lessons on how to maximize grip with technique are endless....which is one reason racing is so addicting.

Methods. The first thing you need to do is to work towards maximum roll speed, as this affects everything. How can you figure out what the latest brake marker is if you have not established how fast you can roll through a corner?...this is putting the cart before the horse. Also, roll speed has a huge affect on how much you can roll on. The faster the bike is rolling, the more throttle input it can handle. So again, you need to get your roll speed up first in order to really establish what maximium roll on can be.

The trick is to couple maximizing roll, entrance and exit speed with smooth and effective body inputs that maximize grip and feedback. Doing everything as hard and and fast as you can without causing any rapid changes in tire load.... let the fun begin.

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ya...thats what i said :D

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Originally Posted by slammp

I wear rubber gloves and always drag four fingers (spread evenly) on the inside hand thus increasing my traction by 10 fold on all corners.


http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a2...gDrifiting.jpg

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This is a technique that some other people have taken to heart =). Why corner on just two tires when you can create extra contact patch??!?!?!

http://i120.photobucket.com/albums/o.../T11hand-1.jpg

https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-v...0/DSC_4708.JPG

But I am with Pete, these are always interesting discussions and I try to pick up on something every time one of them happens =)

Thanks for posting Eric. Well said.

Well here is my hand drag Pic....

http://i82.photobucket.com/albums/j2..._D4N6227-1.jpg

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Originally Posted by Woodcraft

The first thing you need to do is to work towards maximum roll speed, as this affects everything.

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So, that was really the root of what I was trying to understand. All things being equal in ideal conditions with "perfect" body position and inputs, at what point do you say: There, that's the fastest I can get through this corner given this particular line.

Currently, I picture: pegs 1mm off the ground, tires sliding, rider hung way off with only throttle input. Is that maximum roll speed?

That would do it, but you're not gonna get there before learning some, or most of the facets of cornering.

more likely you will be having awkward moments that prevent you from going any faster. Slips, slides, line control problems, etc. Then you have to back up and improve your entry until those moment go away at that speed. Then you raise the bar again til the awkward slips and slides come back and you start the process over.

It never really ends, but you do sort of arrive at a point where your roll speed prety much stabilizes. Then you are really focused at both entry and exit improvements.

Thanks for the input Eric, I *LOVE* these kinds of discussions. I need all the help I can get if I am ever going to see Pete past the 3rd lap :-p

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Originally Posted by PainfullySlow

This is a technique that some other people have taken to heart =). Why corner on just two tires when you can create extra contact patch??!?!?!

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I'll say!

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Originally Posted by Garandman

I'll say!

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uhh... welcome to the photo from page 1... again.... but mirrored and cropped? :squint:
What was the point of doing that?

My issue was and still is when I have to make changes in the line that I am attemption to take during the corner. When I went down at the bowl it was because I was going a lot faster than the rider in front of me so when he cut into my line I pretty much paniced straightened the bike up and went on the brakes.
It might come with time but right now I have very hard time making changes on my direction while im leaned in a corner.
Another part of the track that I am having trouble with is T10. I just dont understand where my body is supposed to be and whats my lean angle. I had several people showing me what line to follow but I always seem to roll off the throttle when I hit the bump which moves weight and makes the bike even more unstable.
Thank you for this topic btw learning a lot from it.. is it spring yet to start putting some of those techniques in practice?

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Originally Posted by tsorfas

My issue was and still is when I have to make changes in the line that I am attemption to take during the corner.

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That's only going to get harder as you get faster in a technical sense, but knowing what is possible comes with just doing more laps.

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Originally Posted by tsorfas

Another part of the track that I am having trouble with is T10. I just dont understand where my body is supposed to be and whats my lean angle. I had several people showing me what line to follow but I always seem to roll off the throttle when I hit the bump which moves weight and makes the bike even more unstable.

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In my experience, when it comes to T10 you want to roll off the throttle out of T9 just enough to make T10 then get back on it early (like in T3) so you're accelerating through the bumps. You've obviously noticed how rolling off loads the front end more, making the bumps more noticeable. Crank through, it makes for a smoother transition, not to mention thats the part of the bike that makes you go... y'know, faster and stuff :)

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Originally Posted by RyanNicholson

In my experience, when it comes to T10 you want to roll off the throttle out of T9 just enough to make T10 then get back on it early (like in T3) so you're accelerating through the bumps. It makes for a smoother transition, not to mention thats the part of the bike that makes you go... y'know, faster and stuff :)

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Do i want to be off the bike but keep the bike upstraight as much as possible? I see people getting so low there I can barely turn the bike the right way... i feel like im going at the grass or that the back its just gonna slide

Throw it in HARD and get on the gas before the transition. I'm not always knee down out of there, but I'm close to it. Continue rolling on the throttle over the transition and the humps. Weight the pegs and let the bike move around.

My laps aren't perfect, but search youtube for some of my newer race vids. I don't add music so it should be pretty easy to hear my motor.
Watch my rate of turn from 9 to 10 and listen to my throttle inputs.

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Originally Posted by tsorfas

Do i want to be off the bike but keep the bike upstraight as much as possible? I see people getting so low there I can barely turn the bike the right way... i feel like im going at the grass or that the back its just gonna slide

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Getting on the throttle is whats important, it sends the load to the rear suspension which lets the bike float over the bumps much smoother. If you roll off it loads the front, so when it hits the bumps it upsets the chassis more. Stay loose and weight your outside peg.

Other than that... what Pete said. The line through there isn't anything special, its just faster/smoother to at least have the throttle rolled on over those bumps and let the bike do its thing.

like this?

No, like this

http://www.nestreetriders.com/forum/...bles-wins-.jpg

:lol:

I love breakin that one out :D

That's two old school pix in one day! :D

This is a great read!! All I can add is my day of One on One instruction with Pete really helped me out on corner speed!

In T10 I agree that getting off the wall sharply and pointed toward T11 as soon as possible helps a bunch!