Trail/turn-in question

Quick question regarding stability and transitions that I was thinking about during lunch today. I feel like I have heard two seemingly contradictory statements.

As I understand it, when you are on the brakes, even a little bit, as the suspension compresses and the front end squats down, rake and trail are decreased making the bike more unstable. This makes turning in easier and quicker. Thus, staying on the brakes through turn-in can help you in corners where a quick turn-in is important... say, turn 6 at NHMS.

However, I have also read that in quick transition areas like the T12 chicane and T1-1A-2, people say to give the throttle a quick squirt to help get the biked flipped over. This seems counterintuitive to me since throttle increases rake and trail as the front rises up, making turning more sluggish.

Which is it?

hmm... or is it because during that transition you want to keep a slightly positive amount of power being put down to the pavement, and as you go from leaning to straight up and down the tire diameter increases and you need gas to keep your speed neutral or slightly increasing?

Thanks.

edit: maybe I should have posted this in suspension corner :dunno:

did you say braking and throttle both decrease rake and trail? I'm not really sure what you are asking. Not that I'm really the right person to answer it anyway.

sorry if I misunderstand your question.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Triumphdog

did you say braking and throttle both decrease rake and trail? I'm not really sure what you are asking. Not that I'm really the right person to answer it anyway.

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Yeah I didn't mean to say that. I fikst it. :twothumb:

I would think throttle. But thats only because its what feels right when I'm on the bike.

i'm not an expert, but I know on low speed maneuvers that I have been trained on for my police riding, throttle helps stand the bike up.

so i'm thinking throttle would help you stand the bike up in the transition, then off the throttle would shift weight back to neutral or towards the front, giving you the ability to turn in after the transition.

:dunno:

As I understand it: You use the brakes leading up to the turn to shift you weight forward, and load the front tire. Because of the traditional bike front suspension, this also has a tendency to compress the forks, reducing trail and increasing rake so it also happens to help tip the bike in. Once in the turn, you don't want to be on the brakes as now you're eating up valuable turning traction.

As far as using the gas in a left right or right left transition, JCBell nailed it, hitting the throttle tends to stand the bike up, so use the throttle to help bring it up, then as it's rolling past upright you can just dab the rear brake to keep some loading on the forks as you back down to maintenance throttle. Works great on minis. : )

You're not on the brakes coming to 1A, 2, through the chicane.... The bike flips quicker when you're getting off the throttle for a second and getting more load on the front, getting back on the throttle allows the bike to stabalize, so....you can slam the bike from one side to the other very quick, but getting on the gas when you get it turning will have it hold the lean angle, add stability, and get the weight off the front wheel. The gyroscopic forces make it hard to change direction on the gas hard and fast, the same forces can hold the bike stable upright or at an angle.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by hessogood

You're not on the brakes coming to 1A, 2, through the chicane.... The bike flips quicker when you're getting off the throttle for a second and getting more load on the front, getting back on the throttle allows the bike to stabalize, so....you can slam the bike from one side to the other very quick, but getting on the gas when you get it turning will have it hold the lean angle, add stability, and get the weight off the front wheel. The gyroscopic forces make it hard to change direction on the gas hard and fast, the same forces can hold the bike stable upright or at an angle.

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:twothumb:

I'll only add that the bike can be harder to turn on the brakes despite reduced trail for a few reasons. One being that you're using up a lot of traction with brakes and it's hard to feel the edge on the front tire. This will cause you brain to limit your inputs. Another factor can be that riders hold on tight during braking. This also limits your inputs. I kinda think it's also a little harder to turn because there's a lot of weight on the front tire.

So, don't be surprised if you feel it's actually harder to turn while using the front brakes.

Kissyfur,

Alls you need to know is "grip it and rip it".

Don't overthink what you're trying to do because you'll take that out there with you and it will eventually distract you.