DC Cop Charged...

[R1]

My .02

The rider should be charged with all the laws for running from the cops. driving to endanger, evasion, speeding, and the list of charges that goes along with running from the cops, regardless of what we know. If no one was hurt and he was caught then they would asses the charges from there i believe they should still regardless if the LEO broke the law

The LEO should be charged with breaking the law as well. Manslaughter seems fair in the fact that lives were lost due to his negligence, The law was there to begin with he supposed to be there to enforce it not break it. From my stand point (regular citizen, ok a little stupid) The LEO's are there to make lives safer in general. I understand police pursuits are dangerous. Why put that danger into the hands of the one trying to enforce the law.

This is like would you kill 2 to save 1, but in this case more like would you let 2 die to catch and prosecute 1. It just doesn't seem to make sense.

And yes i would be one of those people to say the radio is faster than the car, because you can reach out to many minds and come up with a plan to catch the offender as opposed to chase him and hope he makes a mistake or that you can get into a position to stop him.

work smarter not harder?

keep in mind i am an idiot!

[RandyO]

my being against no pursuit policies in no way means I believe cops should be able to break those policies if in place... I'm not arguing that he had fault in it... my frustration comes from the lack of blame on the runner ANYTIME this topic is brought up... after the fact when people are preaching about how the only infraction was speeding... it's fogotten that at the time the pursuit begins... the cop does not have that information... and has to make a decision... I am against not allowing the Officer the oppurtunity to SAFELY pursue and apprehend the fleeing suspect... and yes... once you run you are a suspect.... innocent people don't run...

hmmm, I see ASSumptions in your statement, by the mere fact that your using the terms, runner, or fleeing suspect, when just as likely , the guy that is going fast is doing just that, going fast, speeding, not running, not fleeing, and doesn't even have knowledge that he is being pursued

there are more speeders that speed for no reason whatsoever except to go fast than there are criminals fleeing.

I would think that most, not all, criminals would do the opposite, blend in with traffic and not attract attention

[bigred875]

maybe you missed that part where they said the COP killed 2 people and injured 15? are you really defending his actions with your anti no-pursuit mumbo-jumbo? how do you think that would have changed the situation???

if this guy is "just a speeder" then he knows about the no pursit policy and had no intentions of stopping...if he new there is a chance he'd be chased he is more likely to pull over

maybe somewhere between 65mph and 120mph through traffic he should have made the decision to back off and call it in.

maybe and maybe if a pink leprechaun jumped out of my ass and gave me 10 million i'd be rich..

the no-pursuit policies are in place to DEFINE what is safe and unsafe pursuit. Otherwise cops are allowed to play cowboy and end more chases with 2 people dead and 15 injured.

at this point it's clear you are trolling lol

[bigred875]

hmmm, I see ASSumptions in your statement, by the mere fact that your using the terms, runner, or fleeing suspect, when just as likely , the guy that is going fast is doing just that, going fast, speeding, not running, not fleeing, and doesn't even have knowledge that he is being pursued

there are more speeders that speed for no reason whatsoever except to go fast than there are criminals fleeing.

I would think that most, not all, criminals would do the opposite, blend in with traffic and not attract attention

sounds like you are ASSuming a whole lot in your posts as well...except you give the biker the benefit of doubt

[bigred875]

no mongoose had the ninja edit

[BLACK SQUIRREL]

nice ninja edit....

biker is off scott free...cops does 20 years...ya makes sense to me...

do you guy think through your opinions before posting them? The punishement doesnt fit the crime...

There is is 2 dead people and 15 injured that most likely dont agree

[BLACK SQUIRREL]

no mongoose had the ninja edit

Yup, I wrote somthing that when I thought it about it was incorrect, So I changed It, Thats the Magic of the interwebs

[bigred875]

There is is 2 dead people and 15 injured that most likely dont agree

intent and motive my friend....

i am not saying he should not be charged with anything..but 20 years for an accident? If he was off duty and drunk he wouldnt get that much jail time....

he made a mistake in the line of duty that killed 2 and injured 15, he is going to lose his job. which is probably the only thing he's wanted to do his entire life and live with the what he's done for the rest of his life.

[Pittenger5]

bigred, it seems you come down on everyone for giving the rider the benefit of everything, yet anyone makes a point, like buddah saying these policys are in effect to prevent these incidents you say its trolling?
I think you and Vince, not knowing either of you see things from the LEO side, either you are ones, or were ones, the rest of us arent and see things more from the riders side.

If there is ANYONE here that thinks the rider SHOULDNT be punished for what he did, running, evading etc etc. SPeaking up. I bet we dont see many hands.
But at the same time, the officer BROKE RULES and THOSE broken rules cost 2 people their lives, so he should go unpunished because someone ran from him?
Oh thats right, Im ASSuming he ran because he just committed a triple murder, robbed 6 banks, and punched an old lady in the face.
or I'm ASSuming that he COULDVE been speeding down the highway, the cop on the side of the road, he flys by doesnt see the cop pull out, cop kills people.
Like you say, we dont know. What we know is the cop violated a no chase policy, and two people ended up dead, why should he not be punished?

[bigred875]

not trolling, just making a valid point.
those definitions HAVE to be in place and on paper. otherwise people (in any profession, not just LEOs) are allowed to do pretty much whatever the hell they want.

no LEO is allowed to do whatever they want...in cities that allow pursits there are rules that need to be followed as well...

[VinceF2]

Ok, in this case, knowing what (little) we know right now, what would you charge the biker with? I want your honest opinion.

well not knowing the laws in DC I will go with MA... the easy first charge could be 90/24 Driving to endanger... however... up for interrprutation I give you this:

90/24G Motor Vehicle Homicide

Elements:

Operation by the suspect of a motor vehicle

Operated on a Public Way

Conduct of operation either:
Recklessly so that the lives and safety of the public might be endangered; or
Negligently so that the lives and safety of the public might be endangerd.

that caused the death of another person

Causation: The suspects actions must, directly and substantially, SET IN MOTION the entire chain of events that produce death. Death must occur in a natural and continuous sequence, so that a reasonable person in the suspects position would have foreseen that his actions could easily result in serious injury or death to someone like the victim (Comm. v. Constantino, 433 Mass 521 (2005))

There may be more than one cause of death, and the suspect is typically responsible even if other causes contributed, to some degree, in producing the fatal result (for example, if the victim was also negligent, or if the rescue or medical personnel were negligent). (Comm. v. Williams, 399 Mass. 60 (1987))

Comm. v. Berggren, 398 Mass 338 (1986): police officer killed during a high speed chase, the defendant was convicted of motor vehicle homicide, since the possibility of injury to others was foreseeable...


The law is funny since all of us will read that in different ways... but I believe there would be a case to charge the runner since his actions set the chase in motion which led to the deaths... again... not taking any blame off of the Officer for breaking policy.... but...

(the above was taken from Law Enforcement Dimensions Motor Vehicle Law Book)

[BLACK SQUIRREL]

intent and motive my friend....

i am not saying he should not be charged with anything..but 20 years for an accident? If he was off duty and drunk he wouldnt get that much jail time....

he made a mistake in the line of duty that killed 2 and injured 15, he is going to lose his job. which is probably the only thing he's wanted to do his entire life and live with the what he's done for the rest of his life.

That the court system for you If he was drunk he would be facing that kind of time, He most likely would not be sentenced to that much,

He has not even been found guilty yet, He will most likely walk, or do VERY little time.

[Pittenger5]

Ok, driving to endager, sure. But the homicide, Im not agreeing with you or not, but would there be ANY chance of conviction for this? Im certainly no lawyer (but I did stay at a holiday inn express last night) but wouldnt that be fairly easily to defend? Defense lawyer, yes my client evaded, but if the officer had followed his guidelines and company policy, these people would not have been injured.
Im just saying. I hate douches that run, I wish they could all get whats coming to them, preferably without anyone getting hurt.
Obviously either the rider wasnt identified, or they prosecuters didnt think they had enough evidence to get him on things.
As for bias, Im willing to bet a lot of money if the prosecutors could pin this entire thing on the biker, and let the cop off with a slap on the wrist they would. So it seems to me that they couldnt, and the cop will have to pay for his actions, mistakes or not.

[R1]

well not knowing the laws in DC I will go with MA... the easy first charge could be 90/24 Driving to endanger... however... up for interrprutation I give you this:

90/24G Motor Vehicle Homicide

Elements:

Operation by the suspect of a motor vehicle

Operated on a Public Way

Conduct of operation either:
Recklessly so that the lives and safety of the public might be endangered; or
Negligently so that the lives and safety of the public might be endangerd.

that caused the death of another person

Causation: The suspects actions must, directly and substantially, SET IN MOTION the entire chain of events that produce death. Death must occur in a natural and continuous sequence, so that a reasonable person in the suspects position would have foreseen that his actions could easily result in serious injury or death to someone like the victim (Comm. v. Constantino, 433 Mass 521 (2005))

There may be more than one cause of death, and the suspect is typically responsible even if other causes contributed, to some degree, in producing the fatal result (for example, if the victim was also negligent, or if the rescue or medical personnel were negligent). (Comm. v. Williams, 399 Mass. 60 (1987))

Comm. v. Berggren, 398 Mass 338 (1986): police officer killed during a high speed chase, the defendant was convicted of motor vehicle homicide, since the possibility of injury to others was foreseeable...


The law is funny since all of us will read that in different ways... but I believe there would be a case to charge the runner since his actions set the chase in motion which led to the deaths... again... not taking any blame off of the Officer for breaking policy.... but...

(the above was taken from Law Enforcement Dimensions Motor Vehicle Law Book)

So heres my question......

What are the specifics to a no pursuit policy? Are there stipulations that state its ok to chase in these situations, or is it a firm no pursuit? I mean at what level is pursuit necassary anywhere. With technology today is this even productive? Whats is gained from speeding and endangering the lives of anyone just to stop 1 person?

Wouldnt even a highly trained LEO be endangering lives to pursue. Doesn't that fit into the DTE catagory.

[bigred875]

bigred, it seems you come down on everyone for giving the rider the benefit of everything, yet anyone makes a point, like buddah saying these policys are in effect to prevent these incidents you say its trolling?
I think you and Vince, not knowing either of you see things from the LEO side, either you are ones, or were ones, the rest of us arent and see things more from the riders side.

If there is ANYONE here that thinks the rider SHOULDNT be punished for what he did, running, evading etc etc. SPeaking up. I bet we dont see many hands.
But at the same time, the officer BROKE RULES and THOSE broken rules cost 2 people their lives, so he should go unpunished because someone ran from him?
Oh thats right, Im ASSuming he ran because he just committed a triple murder, robbed 6 banks, and punched an old lady in the face.
or I'm ASSuming that he COULDVE been speeding down the highway, the cop on the side of the road, he flys by doesnt see the cop pull out, cop kills people.
Like you say, we dont know. What we know is the cop violated a no chase policy, and two people ended up dead, why should he not be punished?

this story and most of the attitudes of the people in this thread focus on how awful the cop is for breaking the rules...

i dont pretend to know what a cop has to go through with every traffic stop and you shouldnt either.....they have a responsibility to the people in their community to keep there roads safe. If the biker ran over a gaggle of nuns in a cross walk the story would be "Biker killed 17 nuns and could have been stopped!!....police report shows officer saw the speeding biker but did not follow!!!"

but then again i'm an evil republican so what do i know....i support LEO's and give them the benefit of doubt...even if i know all to well there are some real asshole cops out there...

this is the same mindset that fuels hollywood to make movies about a u.s. soldier raping children and the fact you still hear very little about the good that our military is doing in iraq.....

[bigred875]

yes, rules such as no-pursuit policies, which are defined by certain conditions. he broke the rules. If you're acting outside of department policy, essentially you're acting outside of the law.

i dont think we are on the same wave length hre...not too sure what that has to do with anything lol

[Pittenger5]

So we need to allow the news to dictate whats safe and not?
They're now allowed to decide which laws are necessary and not?

[bigred875]

what the fuck?

[bigred875]

lol ok, i'm gonna go ahead and conceed this debate...i think the point i was trying to make got lost somewhere ....

[Pittenger5]

Ahh my old addage wins again, "if you cant dazzle them with brilliance, baffle them with bullshit"

[bigred875]

haha...thats my philosophy

[RandyO]

sounds like you are ASSuming a whole lot in your posts as well...except you give the biker the benefit of doubt

I wasn't refering to this particular case, just speeders in general, not to give anyone in particular the benifit of doubt

just responding to Vince's characterication that anyone speeding is a "runner" and must be fleeing from something

how many people on this board speed for no reason what so ever except to go fast ?

ya, Vince's comment in his first post set me off with his "what if" the next guy was a rapist murderer, how to FUCK does he know or what difference does it make, do your police detective work, and catch the guy, no need to endanger the public even more, he ain't going to be raping or murdering anybody driving down the road 100mph,make the arrest, give the prosecuter the evidence, and let the judge & jury decide who is guilty

I think if you read thru threads on this board, you will find that I am not one who is a sheep that automaticly declares bikers inocent or not at fault just cause their on a bike

I say to you bigred , FUCK YOU AND THE HORSE YOU RODE IN ON

[bigred875]

I wasn't refering to this particular case, just speeders in general, not to give anyone in particular the benifit of doubt

just responding to Vince's characterication that anyone speeding is a "runner" and must be fleeing from something

how many people on this board speed for no reason what so ever except to go fast ?

well thanks captain obvious for this well thought out comment....now it's my turn..a speeder turns into a runner if he or she doesnt stop.. this guy did not stop..whether or not he knew he was being pulled over or not is for the court to decide..

ya, Vince's comment in his first post set me off with his "what if" the next guy was a rapist murderer, how to FUCK does he know or what difference does it make, do your police detective work, and catch the guy, no need to endanger the public even more, he ain't going to be raping or murdering anybody driving down the road 100mph,make the arrest, give the prosecuter the evidence, and let the judge & jury decide who is guilty

aahhh...ignorance is bliss isnt it... any idea how many "REAL" criminals are caught by routine traffic stops?... again way to ignore the fact that the biker is breaking the law by speeding then breaking a much more serious law by not stopping...nice point of view genius

I think if you read thru threads on this board, you will find that I am not one who is a sheep that automaticly declares bikers inocent or not at fault just cause their on a bike

no you are the polar opposite...you give the rider the benefit of the doubt and demonize "the man"

I say to you bigred , FUCK YOU AND THE HORSE YOU RODE IN ON

thanks...

[Nix]

He should never have initiated the chase in the first place -- should have just called it in. There might have been a helicopter in the area that could follow the kid. Taking off at 130mph in a Crown Vic in good conditions is stupid. Doing it in Beltway traffic is insane -- and I agree with the grand jury, it's criminal.

--mark

Agreed. MD, VA, and DC have many, many helicopters. In fact, a plethora (think 3 Amigos scene with Jefe) if you will. Baltimore alone keeps 3-5 in the air at all times. Sucks all around. People dead, another biker getting bad attention for the rest of us, etc.

[Nix]

this is the same mindset that fuels hollywood to make movies about a u.s. soldier raping children and the fact you still hear very little about the good that our military is doing in iraq.....

+1. Anyone can make blanket generalizations about a group rather than judging individuals. Striking resemblance to raci...ah...nevermind...