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Millenials and the so-called dying motorcycle industry

  1. #101
    Lifer Falko's Avatar
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    Re: Millenials and the so-called dying motorcycle industry


    Quote Originally Posted by loudbeard View Post
    Weird...it's almost like the older people get the more they are willing to shoulder responsibility...that's definitely a new trend.
    I wouldn't go that far, I've seen plenty of people much older than I take the RainX shower when the blame storming starts. And maybe that is part of the problem, people cannot accept that others make mistakes these days. Everyone wants a head a stick at the end of the day, no one wants to fall on the axe when a knee jerk based crucifixion is on the horizon.

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  2. #102
    Lifer SteveM's Avatar
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    Re: Millenials and the so-called dying motorcycle industry

    Quote Originally Posted by Falko View Post
    Yes, completely and believe me it is something that my wife and I work on to the nth degree. We are only parents though, we know little to nothing in his eyes. I had always heard about the extremely strong influence of peers but until I witnessed it, I didn't know the true implications. If you see your child spending time with kids that have characteristics of which you do not approve, you should "influence" your child to spend limited time there. They will develop similar qualities. We have found this out the hard way and are slowly but surely correcting said issues. Funny thing about parenting, you never learn how to do it, it seems to be a constantly adapting role.

    Birds of a feather, flock together.

    Peer influence is huge.

    A college student advisor I have a lot of respect for told me that a student generally becomes the average of their five closest friends.

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  3. #103
    Day late, dollar short carsick's Avatar
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    Re: Millenials and the so-called dying motorcycle industry

    My oldest son drives me nuts (because he's an opinionated, stubborn, sarcastic know it all just like me) BUT damned if he isn't multiple times ahead of where I was at his age. He seems to know what to do when presented with a tricky choice. I'm hoping it's because his mother and I have mostly tried to lead by example, and put him in a position to make his own choices. His friends are good, interesting people. I'm still irritated that he chose to work instead of riding at Boxshop with me though.

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  4. #104
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    Re: Millenials and the so-called dying motorcycle industry

    Quote Originally Posted by Falko View Post
    Yes, to a point. The younger generations have taken blame shedding to a new level though. And unfortunately, it gets worse the younger they get. I've noticed it with my son and his friends. And since my son is in that mix, I blame myself for his infused denial.
    Willing to give an example, or maybe make up an analogous one? I can imagine many ways this applies, but I'm curious what the theme is.

    Is it possible your perception is too heavily influenced by what's local to you, which is your kids and possibly their spoiled and under-parented friends?

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  5. #105
    Lifer Falko's Avatar
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    Re: Millenials and the so-called dying motorcycle industry

    He's younger so much of what he pushes blame with is based on school or sports.
    If he doesn't do well on a test, it isn't because he didn't study it's because another teacher gave work the night before the test, ignoring the fact that he should have been studying several days up and to the day of the test. Pushes the blame for his own procrastination.
    OR
    "Why are you limping?"
    "Jimmy tackled me, hurt my ankle."
    "Why did he tackle you?"
    "'cause he's a jerk."
    "What were you doing before he tackled you?"
    "Pushed him."
    "OK, so you instigated it..."
    "No, I just pushed him, he didn't need to tackle me."

    Stupid 12yo stuff like that, but need him to see how that can progress to worse situations later on.

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  6. #106
    Lifer SteveM's Avatar
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    Re: Millenials and the so-called dying motorcycle industry

    Quote Originally Posted by Falko View Post
    He's younger so much of what he pushes blame with is based on school or sports.
    If he doesn't do well on a test, it isn't because he didn't study it's because another teacher gave work the night before the test, ignoring the fact that he should have been studying several days up and to the day of the test. Pushes the blame for his own procrastination.
    OR
    "Why are you limping?"
    "Jimmy tackled me, hurt my ankle."
    "Why did he tackle you?"
    "'cause he's a jerk."
    "What were you doing before he tackled you?"
    "Pushed him."
    "OK, so you instigated it..."
    "No, I just pushed him, he didn't need to tackle me."

    Stupid 12yo stuff like that, but need him to see how that can progress to worse situations later on.
    External locus of control/blame

    pretty typical for 12

    think back to when you were 12

    The two biggest things I try to be aware of as a college professor are expecting my students to be more adult than they are and rationalizing that belief by re-inventing my supposed level of maturity at their age.

    We all think we were more mature than we really were and we all are overly critical of missteps in this generation's admittedly delayed maturation process (for which we are responsible).

    And the generation before us felt the same way about us...

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  7. #107
    Lifer markbvt's Avatar
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    Re: Millenials and the so-called dying motorcycle industry

    Quote Originally Posted by Falko View Post
    Stupid 12yo stuff like that, but need him to see how that can progress to worse situations later on.
    This sounds like really typical 12-year-old stuff to me, regardless of time period or generational influence. The trick is to teach him, as he matures, to open his mind to the world around him, learn to see things from other perspectives, and take pride in his own honesty. Funnily enough, motorcycling might help with this...

    --mark

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  8. #108
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    Re: Millenials and the so-called dying motorcycle industry

    http://www.cnbc.com/2017/07/12/mille...eys-sales.html

    HD sales are down, layoffs coming.

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  9. #109
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    Re: Millenials and the so-called dying motorcycle industry

    I waited to see if it was just me - I agree that sounds like the usual 12 year old stuff.

    Young People Aren't Saving Harley-Davidson - Jalopnik

    The comments section on this is interesting. I'm surprised to see how many had bad dealership experiences. And I think that's a trend that extends to car dealerships too. The whole thing just seems to cater to sleaze and borderline con-games. The other thing that stands out is souring on the pirate culture. I hadn't considered how much that would hurt HD but nearly everyone I know in my age bracket thinks the tough guy wannabe routine is silly. Sure, some know that it's just a motorcycle and doesn't mean you have to play dress up too. But then the bike loses it's unique draw. What edge does it have over a metric cruiser? At least on the metric bike, you won't be confused for being part of culture.

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    Last edited by aldend123; 07-20-17 at 01:04 PM.
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  10. #110
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    Re: Millenials and the so-called dying motorcycle industry

    Aside from demographic trends, maybe the robust used market is putting a dent into the manufacturers. Being largely recreational vehicles, bikes don't wear as quickly, so there are plenty of decent examples on the used market. For example, if I were looking for another SV, there are plenty of 2nd gens for sale with fewer than 12k miles for less than half the price of a new one. I'm sure there are benefits to owning a new bike, but it'd be tough for me to convince a friend to purchase one off the showroom floor instead of picking up a decent used one. Sometimes bikes see sporadic use as well. Unlike cars, where you probably put similar mileage on the odo each year, many motorcycles might get heavier usage one year, then lighter usage the next, so the replacement cycle isn't as predictable. Most riders I know have bikes that are many model years behind their daily driver.

    As for the generational gap, I don't have an answer. It's probably a complex mix of reasons, only a few of which are economic. The lack of interest is the most fascinating to me. Young people have so many options for recreation and entertainment, so I think that has to be part of it. Unless you're a real gearhead, it's easy to get distracted by other activities. A friend of mine was going to get into the sport, but he couldn't get into an MSF class by the time he made up his mind. The next season, the enthusiasm had waned and he still hasn't made the effort to try again, and he has gone on to do other things with his free time.

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  11. #111
    Senior Member AEG's Avatar
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    Re: Millenials and the so-called dying motorcycle industry

    Quote Originally Posted by aldend123 View Post
    ...
    What edge does it have over a metric cruiser? At least on the metric bike, you won't be confused for being part of culture.
    But how many casual bystanders can distinguish between the metric cruiser and a "real" bike?
    I understand that people might look for a metric cruiser specifically to avoid being lumped into the pirate culture.

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  12. #112
    Lifer
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    Re: Millenials and the so-called dying motorcycle industry

    Quote Originally Posted by AEG View Post
    But how many casual bystanders can distinguish between the metric cruiser and a "real" bike?
    Sure, but when someone asks 'Oh, what motorcycle do you have?', they get to say Suzuki instead of HD.

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  13. #113
    Lifer markbvt's Avatar
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    Re: Millenials and the so-called dying motorcycle industry

    Quote Originally Posted by curiouser View Post
    Aside from demographic trends, maybe the robust used market is putting a dent into the manufacturers. Being largely recreational vehicles, bikes don't wear as quickly, so there are plenty of decent examples on the used market.
    This is key -- and it's amplified by the fact that motorcycles made in the last couple of decades seem to age much better than ones made in the '70s and '80s. If a 25-year-old new(ish) rider can pick up a ten-year-old SV650 or metric cruiser for $3000 that will continue to run and ride great for a long time to come, it's a pretty hard sell to get him/her to spend $10,000+ on a Sportster instead.

    --mark

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  14. #114
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    Re: Millenials and the so-called dying motorcycle industry

    This is an ongoing discussion a lot of friends and I have. From motorcycles, to sports, to jobs and life. I'm 36 and my friends have kids. They have had to take over coaching sports because of the whole, Blue Ribbon mentality. A huge part of the millennial generation was Blue Ribbon raised (everyone's a winner and not a lot of competition in main stream school sports, excluding club play). Play Dates, supervision, be safe, don't take risks were the highlights. They want to be surrounded by friends and media all the time. I don't think they understand the qualities of being alone, solitude, or doing something that might be higher risk. They play it safe almost always. I know there are exceptions to this, and not every one fits in the trend. It just seems to me that most 20-30 year olds (I fall in the new category of Xennial Gap) with free time, spend it socializing in some aspect. You rarely find that "loner" that wants to be out on a bike doing their own thing.

    This topic really interests me. I love the whole sociology aspect of it. I've enjoyed reading the marketing views and trends.

    For me personally ~ I started out on a Suzuki GS500e at the age of 21. I hung out at the track (loved doing corner work) All I wanted was to go bigger and faster, but I skipped the steps of getting comfortable and gaining confidence. My next bike was a Honda CBR600rr. Then a Triumph Sprint. I eventually when to a Harley Sportster 883 and that bike gave me the confidence I should have developed on my 500. Now, getting back into it... 500 are really appealing to me. Though this time, I want something to pack up and be able to go on long trips on. I still fight the whole height issue with a touring bike, I'm only 5'3.

    I still love the track and fast bikes though!

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  15. #115
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    Re: Millenials and the so-called dying motorcycle industry

    Quote Originally Posted by Billy View Post
    It's a combination of things from what i'm seeing with them...

    1) Graduated college with 40-80k of Debt (varies per college)
    2) Entered the workforce at the worst time possible (the recent recession we had)
    3) Got low paying jobs out of college. Lot of them struggled for a couple years out of college because there were no decent jobs due to recession.
    4) Low paying job + 40-80k of debt + the cost of living in New England = Just barely makes enough to get by.
    5) No disposable income.
    you obviously weren't even a twinkle in your parents eyes in the latter half of the '70s, double digit inflation, nearly 20% home mortgages, gasoline rationing

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  16. #116
    Lifer SteveM's Avatar
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    Re: Millenials and the so-called dying motorcycle industry

    I graduated from college in 1983 with 10,000 in debt. My first post degree full time job paid 15,000 per year. In 1985 I partnered with a friend and we bought a two-family in Boston for 146,000. We had little equity but 4 incomes.

    So, a commuting student today might get out with 30,000 in debt and a resident who finances most of the live there cost 60,000.

    As a single point comparison, it would appear salaries and debt have risen reasonably in step, but housing costs have far exceeded salaries in this area.

    Graduating with a starting annual salary = 1.5x debt is not unreasonable for good students with in demand majors and skills.

    But the housing market is the big bogey in this equation for a lot of young people.

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    Last edited by SteveM; 07-22-17 at 02:24 PM.

  17. #117
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    Re: Millenials and the so-called dying motorcycle industry

    Quote Originally Posted by SteveM View Post
    I graduated from college in 1983 with 10,000 in debt. My first post degree full time job paid 15,000 per year. In 1985 I partnered with a friend and we bought a two-family in Boston for 146,000. We had little equity but 4 incomes.

    So, a commuting student today might get out with 30,000 in debt and a resident who finances most of the live there cost 60,000.

    As a single point comparison, it would appear salaries and debt have risen reasonably in step, but housing costs have far exceeded salaries in this area.

    Graduating with a starting annual salary = 1.5x debt is not unreasonable for good students with in demand majors and skills.

    But the housing market is the big bogey in this equation for a lot of young people.
    I'd like to meet the kid that graduates with only 30k in debt. The single student.

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  18. #118
    Lifer SteveM's Avatar
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    Re: Millenials and the so-called dying motorcycle industry

    Commuter or resident

    All little help from family

    Scholarship

    Work summer and part time during school

    Even things like ROTC

    State school vs. Private.

    2 years CC, then transfer and finish.

    I agree with you that a student who borrows every dime of unmet need, gets little financial aid, is not academically at a place where the school heavily discounts their tuition and chooses to live there for four years while not working except summers is likely to amass a ton of debt.

    But there are options.

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    Last edited by SteveM; 07-23-17 at 05:51 AM.

  19. #119
    Senior Member TwelveGaugeSage's Avatar
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    Re: Millenials and the so-called dying motorcycle industry

    The military is actually a fairly good way to get an education with no debt. While you are in, at least in the Air Force, they encourage you to go to school and it is free. I got my associate's degree while in, and used the GI bill to finish my bachelor's degree after I got out. They even pay a significant amount for housing allowance tax free. All this and all you have to do is 3 years(though I believe minimum enlistments are 4 years right now, so you would have to find an early out to only do 3).

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  20. #120
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    Re: Millenials and the so-called dying motorcycle industry

    Quote Originally Posted by aldend123 View Post
    //The other thing that stands out is souring on the pirate culture. I hadn't considered how much that would hurt HD but nearly everyone I know in my age bracket thinks the tough guy wannabe routine is silly. Sure, some know that it's just a motorcycle and doesn't mean you have to play dress up too. But then the bike loses it's unique draw. What edge does it have over a metric cruiser? At least on the metric bike, you won't be confused for being part of culture.
    Was on my way to a conference in New Orleans and the guy who sat next to me happened to be the HD dealer in Charleston, SC: believe it's called Low Country HD, not sure if same owner.

    He said they sold so many tshirts on summer weekends they had to do an afternoon resupply. Their apparel business exceeded their new motorcycle revenue, with higher profit margin. Add in financing revenue, service revenue, and used bikes and it starts to look like a really good business. Now they're on the wrong side of the demographics, maybe not. Don't think I've ever seen one of their Street models in the real world.

    When my wife took the BRC couple years ago, the youngest Harley rider was a woman in her 40's. She owned some sort of Sportster, argued with the instructor about the utility of full face helmets and other riding gear, and barely passed. The stupid runs deep in that culture.

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  21. #121
    Lifer Garandman's Avatar
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    Re: Millenials and the so-called dying motorcycle industry

    Quote Originally Posted by Chippertheripper View Post
    I'd like to meet the kid that graduates with only 30k in debt. The single student.
    Drive up Commonwealth Ave past BU and the kids driving new Mercedes, WRX, and Tahoes are probably getting a free ride. A lot of them at BU seem to be foreign students.

    Keep going to BC and the blonde in the BMW convertible, ditto, except she's from USA. Drive over to Harvard and you find out why Ivies are so difficult to get into: their financial aid packages for most middle class families do not include loans.

    But they're the minority. U.S. Student Loan Debt Statistics for 2017 | Student Loan Hero

    Even at public colleges, 66% of kids are graduating with debt. It's a vicious circle: the more loan funds available, the higher the tuition gets. For the last 30 years, college costs have been increasing over 3% a year, after inflation. That means college costs have roughly doubled in the last 20 years.

    Average Rates of Growth of Published Charges by Decade - Trends in Higher Education - The College Board

    Scary, especially with three kids to get through it. There's a full-fledged industry dedicated to manipulating assets to increase financial aid awards.

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  22. #122
    Lifer Chippertheripper's Avatar
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    Re: Millenials and the so-called dying motorcycle industry

    Quote Originally Posted by Garandman View Post
    Drive up Commonwealth Ave past BU and the kids driving new Mercedes, WRX, and Tahoes are probably getting a free ride. A lot of them at BU seem to be foreign students.

    Keep going to BC and the blonde in the BMW convertible, ditto, except she's from USA. Drive over to Harvard and you find out why Ivies are so difficult to get into: their financial aid packages for most middle class families do not include loans.

    But they're the minority. U.S. Student Loan Debt Statistics for 2017 | Student Loan Hero

    Even at public colleges, 66% of kids are graduating with debt. It's a vicious circle: the more loan funds available, the higher the tuition gets. For the last 30 years, college costs have been increasing over 3% a year, after inflation. That means college costs have roughly doubled in the last 20 years.

    Average Rates of Growth of Published Charges by Decade - Trends in Higher Education - The College Board

    Scary, especially with three kids to get through it. There's a full-fledged industry dedicated to manipulating assets to increase financial aid awards.

    I ain't got no college. I've owned several motorcycles.

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    Last edited by Chippertheripper; 07-23-17 at 07:51 AM.
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  23. #123
    Senior Member AEG's Avatar
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    Re: Millenials and the so-called dying motorcycle industry

    Pirate culture - the first time I heard this term is on the FZ1 forum. They even have a dedicated thread with the encounters with the pirates

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  24. #124
    Lifer Garandman's Avatar
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    Re: Millenials and the so-called dying motorcycle industry

    Quote Originally Posted by Chippertheripper View Post
    I ain't got no college. I've owned several motorcycles.
    While college Communications majors are fighting for Barista jobs, there are electrician, plumbing, and other trade apprentice programs with starting wages of $15-20 per hour going begging.

    And that leaves out trade school and junior college graduates who can go into advanced manufacturing jobs. A kid with an Associates in Mechanical Engineering Technology from a community college can probably earn nearly as much as a BSME. We could never hire them, bigger companies snapped them up.

    We've told our kids we aren't paying for any college program that isn't job-oriented. I'm not paying for anybody to become a SJW.

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  25. #125
    Lifer SteveM's Avatar
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    Re: Millenials and the so-called dying motorcycle industry

    Quote Originally Posted by Garandman View Post
    Drive up Commonwealth Ave past BU and the kids driving new Mercedes, WRX, and Tahoes are probably getting a free ride. A lot of them at BU seem to be foreign students.

    Keep going to BC and the blonde in the BMW convertible, ditto, except she's from USA. Drive over to Harvard and you find out why Ivies are so difficult to get into: their financial aid packages for most middle class families do not include loans.

    But they're the minority. U.S. Student Loan Debt Statistics for 2017 | Student Loan Hero

    Even at public colleges, 66% of kids are graduating with debt. It's a vicious circle: the more loan funds available, the higher the tuition gets. For the last 30 years, college costs have been increasing over 3% a year, after inflation. That means college costs have roughly doubled in the last 20 years.

    Average Rates of Growth of Published Charges by Decade - Trends in Higher Education - The College Board

    Scary, especially with three kids to get through it. There's a full-fledged industry dedicated to manipulating assets to increase financial aid awards.
    Wealthy foreign students paying 100% retail tuition are keeping many of these universities in a please where they are able to discount tuition to worthy American students.

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