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Thoughts/Opinions: How to increase commuting by two wheels?

  1. #26
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    Re: Thoughts/Opinions: How to increase commuting by two wheels?

    I appreciate your passion on the subject. I suspect the resolution will be from a number of small steps. That said, my thoughts are...

    ...Lane splitting
    While I'm not a big fan of lane splitting I do concede it can make a difference to the commute rider. I can't imagine how you could consistently enforce proper use. How do you say what is too close or who is at fault if there is contact between a bike and another vehicle, etc.? While I don't usually take LEO's view of things you don't want to saddle them with an impossible enforcement task that'll just invite more grief.

    ...Cost
    I suspect there are a number of people who would gladly commute on a small/mid sized bike but for the cost of inspection, registration and insurance. If a way can be proposed that drops that cost it should help. I don't know if it is feasible but what about linking the registration on all the bikes you own as though only one would be on the road at a time.

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  2. #27
    Lifer
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    Re: Thoughts/Opinions: How to increase commuting by two wheels?

    Most of the rest of the world makes lane splitting work. The 49 states in the US except CA are the exception, not the rule.
    The problem with lane splitting and filtering is that we here in New England have such an ingrained opinion that it "isn't fair" and "isn't safe" that we are unwilling to let it happen safely.
    I've done it (in SoCal) and it is shockingly easy and safe assuming those around you aren't dicks about it.

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  3. #28
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    Re: Thoughts/Opinions: How to increase commuting by two wheels?

    When I was young I lived in Yonkers NY almost the beginning of suburbia

    In the 1950's there was a small train line 1/2 ,\miles from the house

    2 Blocks was a bus stop that ran EVERY 15 MINUTES and would connect you around the county

    Families could NOT have a car or like 1 car for everyone

    Bit by bit the service was reduced to impracticality both number and like stopping at 11 PM. Even today you go to NYC the last train out is at 11 I think

    Once you force someone to buy the car.... they use it for everything

    Of course soon the USA middle class is destroyed so no car no problem

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  4. #29
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    Re: Thoughts/Opinions: How to increase commuting by two wheels?

    Back in the late 30's, large US car makers literally BOUGHT OUT public transportation in huge swaths of areas and ran it into the ground.

    Also, I think it's worth noting a difference between "lane splitting" and "lane filtering." The latter is typically sub-30 mph, city roads and generally applies only at stop lights or intersections. I think it's much more realistic to push for that, than full on "lane splitting," although I am in favor of both (if done responsibly).

    Keep the feedback coming...

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  5. #30
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    Re: Thoughts/Opinions: How to increase commuting by two wheels?

    Forgot to add I like your thought idea about increased parking dedicated to motorcycles. If the parking was available and the rate reflected the space a bike actually takes it would help. Now if they could put those spaces in a safe area...

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  6. #31
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    Re: Thoughts/Opinions: How to increase commuting by two wheels?

    It's kind of interesting how ideas change over time. I came into this thinking the answer lied with training, and while it does... have come to realize you can't teach the proper techniques if the infrastructure or legal framework doesn't allow it. IMO the best way to stay safe in dense traffic is by being at the front, from filtering, overtaking, etc. It's the only time you can be sure to give enough space is controlling what's in front of you. Been working for 10+ years riding into Boston, but I do deal with the annual speeding ticket or other BS that I have to take time off, and pay fees upon fees, just to fight. Still worth it IMO, but I would be terrified in general riding around here if I weren't so experienced.

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  7. #32
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    Re: Thoughts/Opinions: How to increase commuting by two wheels?

    I would lane-split in ME in stopped traffic. Every day, at least once, some asshole would yell "Wait your turn like the rest of us!"

    Cage drivers are cunts.

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  8. #33
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    Re: Thoughts/Opinions: How to increase commuting by two wheels?

    Lane splitting and filtering would be the biggest help to get legalized.
    Free or cheap parking, in Boston especially, would help a lot, as well.
    I commute every day, and have been able to do that about 8 or 9 months each year.

    Back in San Diego, I rode the bike all the time all year, and went many years without a car at all.
    Lanesplitting worked fine there; it rocks.

    Here, my wife and I have one car; most of the year she drives and I ride; in the winter we share the car.

    I'm in NH, so I'm not much use to your effort in MA, but I approve.

    PhilB

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  9. #34
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    Re: Thoughts/Opinions: How to increase commuting by two wheels?

    I drive an old jeep, which leaves something to be desired in the mpg department. So I do try to take my bike into work when ever I can. It makes monetary since for me to take it.

    Unfortunately, usually that's not enough for me to ride in to work (all interstate with crappy rush hour traffic). Commuting on the interstate is not the enjoyable experience that riding back roads is.

    What I'm trying to say is, that even for an avid motorcyclist... Commuting on two wheels sometimes just doesn't seem desirable.

    I usually only ride in when I know the weather is going to be good, and if I can be flexible enough at work to avoid rush hour traffic. If I know I will be having a hard day (work at construction sites) I won't take the bike even if it is nice, just because I don't have the mental stamina to deal with a bunch of d bags on the interstate. Riding defensively takes a lot of brain power, and sometimes by the end of the day, I don't feel like I have enough left over.

    To get me to ride into work more often, a dedicated HOV or motorcycle lane would definitely help. As others have said before, drivers around here tend to have a very selfish "me first, F you!" Mentality that makes me want to stay as far away as possible.

    Lax lane splitting laws would also be a benefit.

    Very very strict distracted driving laws would make me feel better. I can't believe how often I see ass holes fumbling for a phone or texting while driving...that shit is just crazy.

    Better parking I don't think is an issue. Easy parking has always been a perk of having a motorcycle...not sure adding more parking is necessary.

    I think it will be tough to introduce a new population to riding in on two wheels though - at least a population big enough to ease congestion. As long as there are people making enough to gas up suburbans and the such, it doesn't seem likely that there would ever be a major shift

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  10. #35
    Lifer golden chicken's Avatar
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    Re: Thoughts/Opinions: How to increase commuting by two wheels?

    I am opposed to having to pass someone dawdling along on a moped or scooter on narrow city streets only to have them awkwardly make their way back to the front of the line at the next light.

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  11. #36
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    Re: Thoughts/Opinions: How to increase commuting by two wheels?

    Scooter are superior commuting vehicles

    Better protection from accidents and weather

    Usually nominal storage for activities and or out clothing

    REAL scooters with 300 + cc can do all traffic

    But unless there is an alternative for bad weather/winter then people will need a car and then they will use it.

    Top spin GIVE the 2 wheel people 25 cents per mile year to year paid from slightly increased gas taxes. The reduce wear and tear on the pavement
    would justify this. The infrastructure and possibility to take the cars when the weather doesn't work still exists but your car costs you
    $,60 / mile and the scooter is basically free.

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  12. #37
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    Re: Thoughts/Opinions: How to increase commuting by two wheels?

    Quote Originally Posted by golden chicken View Post
    I am opposed to having to pass someone dawdling along on a moped or scooter on narrow city streets only to have them awkwardly make their way back to the front of the line at the next light.
    Then I'm afraid you don't quite get the point of lane filtering. It has nothing to do with how fast you want to go on a road, and everything to do with putting yourself in the safest place possible at an intersection or red light.

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  13. #38
    Lifer golden chicken's Avatar
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    Re: Thoughts/Opinions: How to increase commuting by two wheels?

    Don't tell me it has nothing to do with being able to slide to the front of the line. If it didn't, you'd just stop off to the side of the lane in the order that you were originally to reduce the possibility of being rear-ended.

    For lane splitting or filtering or any other "special privileges" types of laws, you need to convince the rest of the world that it benefits them somehow.

    Most of the arguments I see for lane splitting or filtering center around things like safety for the rider and a supposed reduction in congestion.

    While I do not have the specific numbers close at hand, being rear-ended is a comparatively rare occurrence, and being killed by being rear-ended on a bike is extremely rare.

    As for the supposed reduction in congestion, look at Southern California. They have the advantages of weather that supports year-round riding, high gas prices that might encourage the use of 40+mpg vehicles like bikes, and wide lanes, and a tolerant stance on splitting and filtering, yet every day there are significant traffic jams. I doubt anyone stuck in a car on the 405 is going to be convinced that they're actually benefitting from a few riders who are able to sneak through.

    Furthermore, it has been my observation that when I have stopped to one side of the lane or the other that drivers often mistake this for an intention to turn or that I am pulled over. They then stop beside me and "share" the lane. Now, knowing where I intend to go, but not really trusting that the car next to me isn't going to cut across my path creates one of those horrible "should I try to punch it across the intersection as soon as the light changes and beat him/what if he turns right/what if someone blows the light" situations. I feel like letting bikes share lanes with cars sends the wrong message that bikes are not entitled to the entire width of the lane, so now you might have a situation where a bike is riding along in medium traffic in one wheel track or the other and a car could feel they have the space to pass in that same lane.

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  14. #39
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    Re: Thoughts/Opinions: How to increase commuting by two wheels?

    Lane splitting or filtering aren't "special privileges"; they are natural advantages of a bike's size and maneuverability. It is laws that artificially prohibit those actions that cause a problem. In the rest of the world, this is recognized. Even in CA, there is no law that specifically permits splitting and filtering; there just aren't laws to prohibit them.

    PhilB

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  15. #40
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    Re: Thoughts/Opinions: How to increase commuting by two wheels?

    outlaw cars

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  16. #41
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    Re: Thoughts/Opinions: How to increase commuting by two wheels?

    State Police got out of his cruiser and yelled at me while filtering through traffic stopped at a red light 2 miles backed up...

    "You're going to cause an accident - WAIT IN LINE LIKE EVERYONE ELSE."

    That's what we're up against. Complete idiocy.

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  17. #42
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    Re: Thoughts/Opinions: How to increase commuting by two wheels?

    Quote Originally Posted by Stromper View Post
    REAL scooters with 300 + cc...

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  18. #43
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    Re: Thoughts/Opinions: How to increase commuting by two wheels?

    Quote Originally Posted by golden chicken View Post
    Don't tell me it has nothing to do with being able to slide to the front of the line. If it didn't, you'd just stop off to the side of the lane in the order that you were originally to reduce the possibility of being rear-ended.

    For lane splitting or filtering or any other "special privileges" types of laws, you need to convince the rest of the world that it benefits them somehow.

    Most of the arguments I see for lane splitting or filtering center around things like safety for the rider and a supposed reduction in congestion.

    While I do not have the specific numbers close at hand, being rear-ended is a comparatively rare occurrence, and being killed by being rear-ended on a bike is extremely rare.

    As for the supposed reduction in congestion, look at Southern California. They have the advantages of weather that supports year-round riding, high gas prices that might encourage the use of 40+mpg vehicles like bikes, and wide lanes, and a tolerant stance on splitting and filtering, yet every day there are significant traffic jams. I doubt anyone stuck in a car on the 405 is going to be convinced that they're actually benefitting from a few riders who are able to sneak through.

    Furthermore, it has been my observation that when I have stopped to one side of the lane or the other that drivers often mistake this for an intention to turn or that I am pulled over. They then stop beside me and "share" the lane. Now, knowing where I intend to go, but not really trusting that the car next to me isn't going to cut across my path creates one of those horrible "should I try to punch it across the intersection as soon as the light changes and beat him/what if he turns right/what if someone blows the light" situations. I feel like letting bikes share lanes with cars sends the wrong message that bikes are not entitled to the entire width of the lane, so now you might have a situation where a bike is riding along in medium traffic in one wheel track or the other and a car could feel they have the space to pass in that same lane.
    PhilB is spot on in his reply, "special privileges" they are not, we think of them this way as drivers here think that driving is a RIGHT, whereas all drivers are "privileged" to use the road. Not much you can do about that.

    Unfortunately in the US, the HURT report is badly oudated. The MAIDS report (European report) is much more robust and up to date, although they have more motorcyclists in their populations. But according to their study, 73% of accidents involving motorcyclists happen in urban areas. There are few who will disagree that dense traffic volume poses an unbalanced impact on a riders' safety than it does in cars. A fender bender is not a trivial thing when a bike is involved. This shouldn't need a statistic to drive the point home, it's simple physics and the lack of physical protection afforded to cyclists.

    You are also discussing gridlocked traffic on highways, this is lane splitting which I've already discussed that I'm on the fence about because it's so hard to enforce responsible lane splitting. Lane filtering is 100% at intersections and typically on city streets. What happens on a 2-lane road when the guy infront of a driver doesn't go right away? They either honk, or force their way into the other lane between cars w/o so much as looking. If a bike is in that spot, you're going to have a bad time. If there weren't data-driven reasons why areas with large populations that ride scooters and bikes to work, you would not see "bike boxes" at the front or the proliferation of lane filtering. Not only for safety, but it takes less space to have 10 bikes waiting at the front, than to have them take up 10 spots a car could use waiting in line.

    Of course the impact is small with such a small population who rides, but if you can impact just a small percentage (as little as 3-5%) to mode shift out of a car onto a bike, particularly in congested areas, you can have a dramatic impact on congestion as a whole. Some studies pin it as much as a 40% reduction in travel time for all, if you can shift up to 10% of the drivers onto bikes.

    Your argument about stopping "to one side of the lane" really implies lack of lane positioning. You should always be in a wheel track (slightly off the center line) but never "on one side" of the lane entirely, particularly the outside portion of the lane. If I saw a guy pulled to the far right of a lane, I'd presume he was stopping as well. That's why you ride left of center in most situations.

    Nothing we can do will impact the attitudes of cagers jealous because they can't move. What you can do is increase awareness and have safe places for the bikes to stop at the front (bike only boxes), and police it hard if drivers encroach on them. But if you've never traveled abroad where filtering is common and seen the swarm of scooters come to the front, then disappear off in front of traffic, it will be hard to picture the benefits. Of course education should also apply to that scooter rider you saw "diddling" in traffic, the whole point is to get OUT in front. So yes, the point is to get to the front of the line, because it's the safest place to be. Think about it, after a light goes green do you feel safer if you were the first person there and can get up into empty space, or when you're stuck in line and have to navigate through an intersection or road amongst all the cars with drivers who aren't paying attention or signalling?

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  19. #44
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    Re: Thoughts/Opinions: How to increase commuting by two wheels?

    Here's an interesting related study on potential congestion impacts of shifting commuters from cars to 2-wheels: http://www.tmleuven.be/project/motor...apport_Eng.pdf

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  20. #45
    Lifer
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    Re: Thoughts/Opinions: How to increase commuting by two wheels?

    I'm fine with filtering, but how do you deal with a 50cc scooter who filters to the front, and a driver at the green light who both intend to go straight. When the light turns green, the scooter is going to slowly make their way to 30mph, and the car is stuck behind them right? Do slower scooters become a bit of a rolling road block in those scenarios?

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  21. #46
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    Re: Thoughts/Opinions: How to increase commuting by two wheels?

    Quote Originally Posted by aldend123 View Post
    I'm fine with filtering, but how do you deal with a 50cc scooter who filters to the front, and a driver at the green light who both intend to go straight. When the light turns green, the scooter is going to slowly make their way to 30mph, and the car is stuck behind them right? Do slower scooters become a bit of a rolling road block in those scenarios?
    Happens constantly already, I see it almost daily. 9 times out of 10 the scooter filters back into traffic prior to getting in the lead position.

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  22. #47
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    Re: Thoughts/Opinions: How to increase commuting by two wheels?

    That's where training comes in, but this is much more of a problem with bicycles that don't have much forward acceleration potential. Scooters, in theory, you should be training the operator in that situation to get on it and get out in front. Light systems typically will give bikes an "advanced green" before the "full green," as one way to accommodate this.

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  23. #48
    Lifer golden chicken's Avatar
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    Re: Thoughts/Opinions: How to increase commuting by two wheels?

    I brought up "stopping to one side of the lane" because you brought up filtering as being safer, I assume you mean that it would be reduced risk of being rear-ended. Therefore "lane positioning" as in using one or the other wheel track doesn't make you any safer from being rear-ended than stopping in the center of the road does since you're still in the line of fire. I was trying to show by removing yourself from the line of fire, you also remove yourself from claiming the lane, which causes other safety issues.

    Since you bring up the "bike box" and the "advanced green", let me address those.

    The bike box: We can barely get everyone to stay out of the crosswalks, nevermind adding another 10ft. box they can't stop behind.

    The advanced green: You can't have a green in one direction without first stopping the cross traffic. Giving the bikes a head start by forcing the cars to wait even just one second longer is bound to cause strong resistance from car-only voters.

    Instead, why not ask everyone to accelerate a little harder from the green? Most economy cars do 0-60 in under 10 seconds, and many midsize sedans with base 4 cylinders can do it between 7.5 and 8.5 seconds. A modern V6 Accord/Camry/Altima could do it in under 7. Can small-displacement bikes and scooters do that? My 1980 XS400 couldn't.

    PS - Please don't misunderstand my argument as taking up a counter position to yours. I would love for Boston to be more motorcycle-friendly and for splitting in stopped traffic to be allowed. I applaud you for carrying the torch for us riders. I just think we face a huge disadvantage of being in the severe minority and most of our wants appear to be selfish, whether they actually are or not.

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    Last edited by golden chicken; 10-09-14 at 05:47 PM.
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  24. #49
    Lifer
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    Re: Thoughts/Opinions: How to increase commuting by two wheels?

    Scooters are slow, but they aren't that slow. Ridden right, most can get off the line faster than passenger vehicles. 0-60 doesn't matter down-town. 0-30 does. Scooters do fine there.
    Really, how often are you doing >30 in congested Boston traffic? If the scooters are alert and punch it when the light goes green they will get enough of a gap that you'll never see them again.

    At least that's what I observed overseas and in cali.

    Getting cars to stop BEFORE the GD line does need better enforcement though. No argument there.

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    Last edited by nhbubba; 10-09-14 at 06:04 PM.

  25. #50
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    After spend a week driving in CA on a bike, I have to say that lane splitting is the greatest thing ever. And being able to split between the HOV lane regular travel lane was awesome at 70mph. Filtering was tough on such a big bike. Splitting was pretty easy while traveling. If there wasnt enough room, all I had to do was hug the line for few moments and then people would move. I will say that I had the shit scared out of me while riding in a cab when a bike flew by. All in all it obviously works, even the cab driver said "motorcycles have the right of way out here"
    I agree that people have that whole "youre not getting ahead of me" mentality but I think eventually people would get over it. The issue is the pure lack of respect for motorcyclists. I was at the parking lot at the bus station yesterday where they have "motorcycle only" parking...with 3 cars parked in it.

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