2009 Rulebook?

[xsiliconkid]

When do the rules for the next year typically get posted? I'm interested in seeing where the SV650's end up (ULWSB or LWSB) for lrrs. I've heard rumors for both.

Thanks,
Fitz

Short answer – for LRRS in 09 – stay tuned.

But to entertain you…. Here’s a bit of history before the start of the 08 season.

First, there are two things different for LRRS compared to almost any other CCS meet.
1. # of bikes per race-considerably bigger (regional bigger market)
2. A much larger field of smaller bikes compete. We (LRRS) need to continue to promote this.

Before the start of 08, I was privy to CCS planning on allowing LWSB spec SV’s into ULWSB and LWSS spec SV’s into ULWSB for the 08 season(it seemed to be a done deal). I wanted to know what would be the potential impact at LRRS events. Supported by other LRRS management I analyzed the potential impact of:
1 LWSB spec SV’s allowed in the ULWSB class.
2 (and/or) LWSS spec SV’s allowed in the ULWSB class

I used actual race data from all 07 LRRS events - looking at fastest lap times, average lap times, and total race times – I took both AM and Experts into account, ALL SV's in LWSB spec, all entire ULWSB field, and all the LWSS stock SV bikes..for every race event. I used each bike’s actual lap-by-lap times to obtain averages and elapsed race time (not the LRRS timing sheet total elapsed time – this includes total-time error due to Grid position.

Attached a sample of data that convinced LRRS and CCS, it was not a good idea to allow LWSB spec SV’s or even LWSS spec SV’s into ULWSB, at least for the 08 season.

In the attached field size chart it simply shows the potential # of racers per event should they allow LWSB SV’s into ULWSB. (remember both AM and experts are on the track at the same time)

The second chart – (this data just happens to be one race week) On the left shows potential finishing positions by combining the times of the SV’s in LWSB with the ULWSB class. Eight of the top 10 are LWSB spec SV’s with the second place ULWSB bike down in 11th place. Statistically the ULWSB field would be slaughtered. Every week end showed the same trend.

On the right it shows potential finishing positions if the LWSS (stock) SV’s were allowed into ULWSB (the top 11 bikes finishing in LWSS were SV's)
While a little better for non SV racers, in a combined field, of the top 10 bikes finishing 7 would be SV’s.

LRRS management decision was a wise one- see sometimes it’s not ready, shoot, aim!

Today, I still think it’s wrong for CCS to include SV's in ULWSB - It will end up being just all SV's. OR even just allowing stock SV’s from LWSS would be disastrous - over a couple of seasons will kill off all non SV bikes. Basically from a competitive standpoint it will eliminate a whole range of makes. (Aprillia 250's, Ducs, Motards, and a few others).
In addition there’s already 5 classes SV's can run in, they don't need more!

BUT, I can understand CCS -a lot of race events have very small fields.. NOT the case for LRRS. If the current large LRRS ULWSB field shrinks then I would be in favor of the SV class moves.

Graham Pattison

Gino....can buy me a beer later!

[xsiliconkid]

No, just a favorite "passing" style of the motard riders. Usually is followed by me passing them nicely on the front straight.

and how can that be?

[xsiliconkid]

I think the fast Motard Guys Have showed us that The "Fast way" around Loudon on a Motard is The classic racing line. The motard allows you some Variation but The line for an SV or Hawk is Perfect for Motard.

true a Motard "can" run the same line.........
except for the turn in to T1, shooting hard from 1a to the apex of 2, the outside of 3, how wide you let it rip before T5.... and a few other turns...

[xsiliconkid]

and friggin 800ss 80hp Ducs!

and 112Hp ds1000....

[xsiliconkid]

I only have 795cc

yeah sure....let the am#1 plate holde think he is legal, who told you that!

[BLACK SQUIRREL]

Short answer – for LRRS in 09 – stay tuned.

But to entertain you…. Here’s a bit of history before the start of the 08 season.

First, there are two things different for LRRS compared to almost any other CCS meet.
1. # of bikes per race-considerably bigger (regional bigger market)
2. A much larger field of smaller bikes compete. We (LRRS) need to continue to promote this.

Before the start of 08, I was privy to CCS planning on allowing LWSB spec SV’s into ULWSB and LWSS spec SV’s into ULWSB for the 08 season(it seemed to be a done deal). I wanted to know what would be the potential impact at LRRS events. Supported by other LRRS management I analyzed the potential impact of:
1 LWSB spec SV’s allowed in the ULWSB class.
2 (and/or) LWSS spec SV’s allowed in the ULWSB class

I used actual race data from all 07 LRRS events - looking at fastest lap times, average lap times, and total race times – I took both AM and Experts into account, ALL SV's in LWSB spec, all entire ULWSB field, and all the LWSS stock SV bikes..for every race event. I used each bike’s actual lap-by-lap times to obtain averages and elapsed race time (not the LRRS timing sheet total elapsed time – this includes total-time error due to Grid position.

Attached a sample of data that convinced LRRS and CCS, it was not a good idea to allow LWSB spec SV’s or even LWSS spec SV’s into ULWSB, at least for the 08 season.

In the attached field size chart it simply shows the potential # of racers per event should they allow LWSB SV’s into ULWSB. (remember both AM and experts are on the track at the same time)

The second chart – (this data just happens to be one race week) On the left shows potential finishing positions by combining the times of the SV’s in LWSB with the ULWSB class. Eight of the top 10 are LWSB spec SV’s with the second place ULWSB bike down in 11th place. Statistically the ULWSB field would be slaughtered. Every week end showed the same trend.

On the right it shows potential finishing positions if the LWSS (stock) SV’s were allowed into ULWSB (the top 11 bikes finishing in LWSS were SV's)
While a little better for non SV racers, in a combined field, of the top 10 bikes finishing 7 would be SV’s.

LRRS management decision was a wise one- see sometimes it’s not ready, shoot, aim!

Today, I still think it’s wrong for CCS to include SV's in ULWSB - It will end up being just all SV's. OR even just allowing stock SV’s from LWSS would be disastrous - over a couple of seasons will kill off all non SV bikes. Basically from a competitive standpoint it will eliminate a whole range of makes. (Aprillia 250's, Ducs, Motards, and a few others).
In addition there’s already 5 classes SV's can run in, they don't need more!

BUT, I can understand CCS -a lot of race events have very small fields.. NOT the case for LRRS. If the current large LRRS ULWSB field shrinks then I would be in favor of the SV class moves.

Graham Pattison

Gino....can buy me a beer later!

I agree That allowing SV into ULSB would Be harmful to ULSB at loudon and Maybe other tracks as well, However the problem being That If you go to the major markets SE/ Florida ect, You will find SV's rarely crack the top 5 Because the Buells Make over 100HP in race trim, as well as some very well made DUCs. At the asra Thunderbike race there was 2 SV Superbikes running at the back. There were the only SV's in the race.

The problem is Development. Both the SV's and Most ULSB bikes are based on old Bikes and are at the Maxium level of modifications. There has never been a faster SV made ala (Ducati sport classic ect, Buel XB12 ect)

imagine if honda never Made the RR and stayed with the f4i Platform The newer GSX-R6-636 would kill it and would it move to LW?

or how the 748 can run in thunderbike when it use to be a Middleweight bike.

It does not make sense for Loudon to switch but it does make damm good sense for other regions ect.

[OreoGaborio]

No such race animal.

Stock motored... as in unwerked engine. Better?

[xsiliconkid]

Stock motored... as in unwerked engine. Better?

even the "stock" SV's are breathed on....... now your'e going to tell me your Race SV is as it came off the production line...

[OreoGaborio]

Do you really consider exhaust & PCIII "worked"? Cuz that's all it has.

Ok... a SUPERSPORT LEGAL SV

[Doc]

With the development of bikes the old are usered out for the new.

Quite possibly the SV is the "NEW" ULSB... That sucks cause there are plenty of smaller bikes that make nice race platforms that will be destroyed by SV's.

Maybe we need a SUPER Ultralight Class.

In other Markets do SV's have 5 classes they can run in as well?

That is my biggest issue... Why give them ANOTHER class?

[BLACK SQUIRREL]

With the development of bikes the old are usered out for the new.

Quite possibly the SV is the "NEW" ULSB... That sucks cause there are plenty of smaller bikes that make nice race platforms that will be destroyed by SV's.

Maybe we need a SUPER Ultralight Class.

In other Markets do SV's have 5 classes they can run in as well?

That is my biggest issue... Why give them ANOTHER class?

Its not about number of classes you can RUN in, you can run every class with an ex500 if you want but you wont be competitve. What is happening in the lightwieght and thunderbike classes that the SV'a are not longer really that competive at the bigger tracks, The other companies Buell and Ducati and even BMW have raised the bar and suzuki basically blew the whole thing off 1 change 10 years.

again I am speaking of other tracks not Loudon as Loudon is a strange bird.


Basically Buell and Ducati are redifining what the lightwieght class is and for better or worse that trickles down to ultralight class.

Maybe a 650 twin class like they run in WERA.

[Doc]

Just call it Production Twins...

[xsiliconkid]

Just call it Production Twins...

there is talk......
Also,SV's can run in 5 classes and be competitive at NHMS...
Yep, I can see on a HP track things are different.

LRRS is a 8 race series, therefore the rules need to be approprite for "that" series. CCS rules form the basis for the LRRS series.

[Fitz]

Makes sense to me. It's nice to see some of the data crunching that happens behind the scenes.

Thanks,
Fitz

[brewmaster]

Good thing someone with some smarts is looking at the data. Thanks Graham!

So what about an all air cooled class?

[xsiliconkid]

Good thing someone with some smarts is looking at the data. Thanks Graham!

So what about an all air cooled class?

the duc 1000's aka #11 would qualify

[brewmaster]

the duc 1000's aka #11 would qualify

Yes, I know Brett would mop it up.

However older Buells, air cooled jap stuff and BMW's. No 2 strokers and a minimum of 600 cc's. I don't know just seems air cooled bikes are going the way of 2 strokers. I'm sure there would be potential for some odd and possibly fast combination's.

Ok here is a REALLY strange idea. What about an alternative fuel class. I.e.- electric, hydrogen, diesel, you know kind of a "green class".

Alright start the flaming!

[OreoGaborio]

[Fitz]

Yes, I know Brett would mop it up.

However older Buells, air cooled jap stuff and BMW's. No 2 strokers and a minimum of 600 cc's. I don't know just seems air cooled bikes are going the way of 2 strokers. I'm sure there would be potential for some odd and possibly fast combination's.

Ok here is a REALLY strange idea. What about an alternative fuel class. I.e.- electric, hydrogen, diesel, you know kind of a "green class".

Alright start the flaming!

They have one. It runs on Tuesday or Thursday nights on the road course. Definitely no knee dragging involve though.

Fitz

[nt650hawk]

Short answer – for LRRS in 09 – stay tuned.

But to entertain you…. Here’s a bit of history before the start of the 08 season.

First, there are two things different for LRRS compared to almost any other CCS meet.
1. # of bikes per race-considerably bigger (regional bigger market)
2. A much larger field of smaller bikes compete. We (LRRS) need to continue to promote this.

Before the start of 08, I was privy to CCS planning on allowing LWSB spec SV’s into ULWSB and LWSS spec SV’s into ULWSB for the 08 season(it seemed to be a done deal). I wanted to know what would be the potential impact at LRRS events. Supported by other LRRS management I analyzed the potential impact of:
1 LWSB spec SV’s allowed in the ULWSB class.
2 (and/or) LWSS spec SV’s allowed in the ULWSB class

I used actual race data from all 07 LRRS events - looking at fastest lap times, average lap times, and total race times – I took both AM and Experts into account, ALL SV's in LWSB spec, all entire ULWSB field, and all the LWSS stock SV bikes..for every race event. I used each bike’s actual lap-by-lap times to obtain averages and elapsed race time (not the LRRS timing sheet total elapsed time – this includes total-time error due to Grid position.

Attached a sample of data that convinced LRRS and CCS, it was not a good idea to allow LWSB spec SV’s or even LWSS spec SV’s into ULWSB, at least for the 08 season.

In the attached field size chart it simply shows the potential # of racers per event should they allow LWSB SV’s into ULWSB. (remember both AM and experts are on the track at the same time)

The second chart – (this data just happens to be one race week) On the left shows potential finishing positions by combining the times of the SV’s in LWSB with the ULWSB class. Eight of the top 10 are LWSB spec SV’s with the second place ULWSB bike down in 11th place. Statistically the ULWSB field would be slaughtered. Every week end showed the same trend.

On the right it shows potential finishing positions if the LWSS (stock) SV’s were allowed into ULWSB (the top 11 bikes finishing in LWSS were SV's)
While a little better for non SV racers, in a combined field, of the top 10 bikes finishing 7 would be SV’s.

LRRS management decision was a wise one- see sometimes it’s not ready, shoot, aim!

Today, I still think it’s wrong for CCS to include SV's in ULWSB - It will end up being just all SV's. OR even just allowing stock SV’s from LWSS would be disastrous - over a couple of seasons will kill off all non SV bikes. Basically from a competitive standpoint it will eliminate a whole range of makes. (Aprillia 250's, Ducs, Motards, and a few others).
In addition there’s already 5 classes SV's can run in, they don't need more!

BUT, I can understand CCS -a lot of race events have very small fields.. NOT the case for LRRS. If the current large LRRS ULWSB field shrinks then I would be in favor of the SV class moves.

Graham Pattison

Gino....can buy me a beer later!

Ghaham, DON"T USE THIS YEARS ULSB DATA!!!!!

I may have messed up the data this year. Sorry ULSB racers.

[nt650hawk]

[xsiliconkid]

Ghaham, DON"T USE THIS YEARS ULSB DATA!!!!!

I may have messed up the data this year. Sorry ULSB racers.

For the record, i an not carrying the "torch" in 09 to keep ULWSB pure.

[nt650hawk]

WHO IS.

Depending on the outcome. OR

[Pittenger5]

I got it Gino!
Wait, are dirtbikes allowed? Im still confused

[nt650hawk]