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Rules Meeting

  1. #1
    Lifetime Motorcyclist Woodcraft's Avatar
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    Rules Meeting


    Hey all - in case that the announcement has not made it around, there is a rule meeting happening tomorrow at the Banquet Hotel at 3PM. Anyone who has anything that they feel needs addressing but cannot make it can leave that info here and I'll be checking back around noon tomorrow to gather a list if there is one.

    I look forward to seeing everyone tomorrow night!

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  2. #2
    Lifer Kurlon's Avatar
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    Re: Rules Meeting

    Looking over the proposed rulebook, here's my two cents:

    Quote Originally Posted by 7.1.11
    Breath Masks that cover both the mouth and nose may not be worn
    Why is this a thing? I for example am a BIG proponent of Foggy Respro masks, they're about the only way I can keep from fogging my helmet into oblivion on humid days. My wearing them puts me in direct violation of this rule.

    Quote Originally Posted by 9.10
    Liquid cooled engines and their radiators must be flushed. Only water or an approved ethylene and
    propylene glycol free cooling system additive may be used. The use of anti-freeze is subject to a $50
    fine. A list of approved additives is below and available at Tech Inspection. Additives not listed can be
    tested in legality in Tech Inspection.
    Finally, the list is in the rule book, much appreciated. That said, the last line which I've marked in bold should be tossed. We're talking about a safety issue. The argument that "I didn't know what was legal 'cause I couldn't find a list" is no longer valid, it'll be in the rule book. So if you roll up to tech on Saturday morning with refined weasel squeezings in your radiator hoping Tech can do a pavement scuff test and send you along your way with a thumbs up, you should be smacked, shown the list and sent back to your pits. Giving a sample to Tech for later eval with hopes of it being approved for the next event is fine, but providing a cop out option is just going to keep us in the wild west as to who's got what in their bikes. I've emailed suggested text for this section before seeing this update, I think adding clarification that additives may only used at most at the MFG's dictated concentration is worth including. I've heard Grahame pester people on that during Tech Inspection.

    Quote Originally Posted by 16.1.1
    It is the rider’s responsibility to check the preliminary results sheet within 60
    minutes of posting.
    Note: Results on Race-Monitor are ‘Informational Only’ not ‘Preliminary’.
    I have no problem with time limits on protesting results, but I'm going to counter with there needs to either be a time limit on getting preliminary results posted, or a minimum announcing standard for when they get put up. Even more so any protests / etc should also garner an announcement. Towards the end of 2016 there was an obvious effort by the announcer to call out results posting which is awesome. I see there is mention of the FM transmitter this year so that covers my other suggestion on the topic already.

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  3. #3
    WMC original sdog30's Avatar
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    Re: Rules Meeting

    I too think the face mask rule is dumb, but was told the foggy masks are legal because the bottom is open, so technically your mouth is open.

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  4. #4

    Re: Rules Meeting

    Eric just my 2 cents since I won't make it to the banquet:
    If you cause a red flag you don't get points (results go based on the last lap and sometimes even the person who caused the red flag gets points due to last lap showing them active).
    In my opinion a racer should only receive points by fully completing the length of the race too but I'm not sure how others would feel about that becoming a rule.

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  5. #5
    Lifer isaac_'s Avatar
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    Re: Rules Meeting

    Quote Originally Posted by sdog30 View Post
    I too think the face mask rule is dumb, but was told the foggy masks are legal because the bottom is open, so technically your mouth is open.
    And they attach to the inside of the helmet right? So it's not like if the paramedics were to pull your helmet off it would stay on you.

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  6. #6
    Animal Hill Super Motard Champion Johnny B's Avatar
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    Re: Rules Meeting

    "7.1.11
    Breath Masks that cover both the mouth and nose may not be worn"


    This was discussed many years ago at length. Don Hutchinson clearly stated that covering both the mouth and the nose with a mask will have you re breathing air you have exhaled. The rule stands.

    "I too think the face mask rule is dumb, but was told the foggy masks are legal because the bottom is open, so technically your mouth is open."

    As long as you are able to inhale fresh air after exhaling, you should be good to go. As stated above, Don was concerned about re breathing exhaled air. Back in the day, riders were either wearing cup like masks over the mouth and nose or making dams inside the helmets out of duct tape to divert breathing away from the shield.

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    Last edited by Johnny B; 02-03-17 at 09:25 PM.
    Johnny B. (the other one) ®
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  7. #7
    Animal Hill Super Motard Champion Johnny B's Avatar
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    Re: Rules Meeting

    The additives list is something I put together a few years ago using research on the net and swiping info from the WERA BBS. Upon getting the wording put into the rulebook this year, I double checked the websites of all the brands listed to verify that they were still non glycol as listed.
    Note that I made a point of listing two additives that are NOT acceptable. I did this because at least one of them advertises themselves as legal for CCS/ASRA. They are even paying contingency in this year's Daytona 200. It contains Propylene Glycol so it is not legal for LRRS. (or WERA, too.)
    The other one says that they are waterless. They also claim to protect to -40° and after carefully going through their website, I found the damning key phrase. "very slippery".

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    Johnny B. (the other one) ®
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  8. #8
    Lifer isaac_'s Avatar
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    Re: Rules Meeting

    Quote Originally Posted by tsorfas View Post
    Eric just my 2 cents since I won't make it to the banquet:
    If you cause a red flag you don't get points (results go based on the last lap and sometimes even the person who caused the red flag gets points due to last lap showing them active).
    In my opinion a racer should only receive points by fully completing the length of the race too but I'm not sure how others would feel about that becoming a rule.
    So, say you had a mechanical and pull in, placing you in the last point-scoring spot. You're suggesting he doesn't get points?

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  9. #9
    Lifer Kurlon's Avatar
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    Re: Rules Meeting

    Quote Originally Posted by tsorfas View Post
    In my opinion a racer should only receive points by fully completing the length of the race too but I'm not sure how others would feel about that becoming a rule.
    Is there any other series out there that operates this way as an example?

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  10. #10

    Re: Rules Meeting

    Quote Originally Posted by Kurlon View Post
    Is there any other series out there that operates this way as an example?

    Pretty much every single other series up to Motogp and WBSK
    I personally have never heard of any Motorsport (or sport in general) where you get points by not completing the race/competition

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    Last edited by tsorfas; 02-03-17 at 10:07 PM.

  11. #11

    Re: Rules Meeting

    Quote Originally Posted by isaac_ View Post
    So, say you had a mechanical and pull in, placing you in the last point-scoring spot. You're suggesting he doesn't get points?

    Correct. None of the 1 completed lap and you get points. You see the checkered or get lapped by the person getting the checkered. You crash or get a mechanical it's a DNF. 0 points.

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  12. #12
    Lifer Kurlon's Avatar
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    Re: Rules Meeting

    Quote Originally Posted by tsorfas View Post
    Pretty much every single other series up to Motogp and WBSK
    I personally have never heard of any Motorsport (or sport in general) where you get points by not completing the race/competition
    So, in MotoGP/WSBK you absolutely still get points even if you don't go the full distance. Watch any rain race with lots of crashes even towards the end to see this happen. Riders will stay out even in crap conditions just to be further up the results in the race of attrition even if they are WAY off race pace.

    On causing red flags, wasn't it Luthi (sp?) who caused a red flag in Moto3, re-gridded and still bagged second in one race?

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  13. #13

    Re: Rules Meeting

    So in motogp and wbsk you can do a lap and get points and if you cause a red flag and the race ends you get scored as the last completed round and get points?

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  14. #14
    Lifer Chippertheripper's Avatar
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    Re: Rules Meeting

    Quote Originally Posted by tsorfas View Post
    Pretty much every single other series up to Motogp and WBSK
    I personally have never heard of any Motorsport (or sport in general) where you get points by not completing the race/competition
    Quote Originally Posted by tsorfas View Post
    So in motogp and wbsk you can do a lap and get points and if you cause a red flag and the race ends you get scored as the last completed round and get points?
    Lol.

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  15. #15
    Lifer Pittenger5's Avatar
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    Re: Rules Meeting

    COTA round

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  16. #16
    Lifer jasnmar's Avatar
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    Re: Rules Meeting

    Quote Originally Posted by Johnny B View Post
    "7.1.11
    Breath Masks that cover both the mouth and nose may not be worn"


    This was discussed many years ago at length. Don Hutchinson clearly stated that covering both the mouth and the nose with a mask will have you re breathing air you have exhaled. The rule stands.

    "I too think the face mask rule is dumb, but was told the foggy masks are legal because the bottom is open, so technically your mouth is open."

    As long as you are able to inhale fresh air after exhaling, you should be good to go. As stated above, Don was concerned about re breathing exhaled air. Back in the day, riders were either wearing cup like masks over the mouth and nose or making dams inside the helmets out of duct tape to divert breathing away from the shield.
    I'm sorry, but I don't get this at all. Surgeons wear masks that cover their noses and mouths and operate for endless hours. There is some "rebreathing" that happens in these masks. There's some rebreathing that happens to all people as they go about their day as well.

    The Foggy mask is exactly a dam inside the helmet. That is exactly what it does. The only way to argue that the Foggy mask doesn't cover one's nose and mouth is to argue that a full face helmet doesn't cover one's face. If we agree that the top of the helmet is above one's nose, then a full face helmet covers the nose. The Foggy mask is intentionally formed to cover the nose. If we agree that the chin bar on a full face helmet covers one's chin, then unless we have someone with strange anatomy, where their mouth is below their chin, based on how the Foggy mask works it covers their mouth and is, by rule, illegal.

    If the intent isn't to exclude it, please, by rule make it clear that Foggy type masks, and those that are substantially similar are allowed. I've used them on the street for years, but have quit races because of fogging as I believed them, specifically, to be excluded based on the rulebook.

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    Last edited by jasnmar; 02-04-17 at 12:07 AM.

  17. #17

    Re: Rules Meeting

    I personally have never heard of any Motorsport (or sport in general) where you get points by not completing the race/competition
    Nascar

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  18. #18

    Re: Rules Meeting

    How hard would it be to enforce pit out, pit in rules? This seems to be a issue every year and has major consequences if some one makes a very bad judgment call either going out wide into traffic on pit out or makes the huge mistake of changing there mind about pitting in then swinging back into the chicane or not putting your hand up and then swing left into the pits..
    Can we have penalties for this infraction?

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  19. #19
    Lifer loudbeard's Avatar
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    Re: Rules Meeting

    Quote Originally Posted by MUZ720 View Post
    How hard would it be to enforce pit out, pit in rules? This seems to be a issue every year and has major consequences if some one makes a very bad judgment call either going out wide into traffic on pit out or makes the huge mistake of changing there mind about pitting in then swinging back into the chicane or not putting your hand up and then swing left into the pits..
    Can we have penalties for this infraction?
    There certainly should be penalties. It's covered literally every single riders meeting and immediately ignored. I really don't understand what is so difficult about the procedure...

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  20. #20
    WMC original sdog30's Avatar
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    Re: Rules Meeting

    Quote Originally Posted by jasnmar View Post
    I'm sorry, but I don't get this at all. Surgeons wear masks that cover their noses and mouths and operate for endless hours. There is some "rebreathing" that happens in these masks. There's some rebreathing that happens to all people as they go about their day as well.

    The Foggy mask is exactly a dam inside the helmet. That is exactly what it does. The only way to argue that the Foggy mask doesn't cover one's nose and mouth is to argue that a full face helmet doesn't cover one's face. If we agree that the top of the helmet is above one's nose, then a full face helmet covers the nose. The Foggy mask is intentionally formed to cover the nose. If we agree that the chin bar on a full face helmet covers one's chin, then unless we have someone with strange anatomy, where their mouth is below their chin, based on how the Foggy mask works it covers their mouth and is, by rule, illegal.

    If the intent isn't to exclude it, please, by rule make it clear that Foggy type masks, and those that are substantially similar are allowed. I've used them on the street for years, but have quit races because of fogging as I believed them, specifically, to be excluded based on the rulebook.
    The foggy velcros to the inside of the helmet in front of your mouth, so as long as your helmet doesn't have a valance on the bottom that closes the bottom of the helmet in to your chin, the bottom where your mouth is is left open to fresh air.

    I would agree it would be easier to add it as an exclusion to the rule so it's in their, though.

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  21. #21
    Get Weird! maxim_X's Avatar
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    Re: Rules Meeting

    A foggy visor is more dangerous than a second breath of the same air. It's not like you can contain a lung full of air in the space under your nose, there has to be some fresh air. I don't use the product personally, the pin lock works for me, but if it doesn't there shouldn't have to be a choice about having that diverted installed or not being able to see clearly.

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  22. #22
    Lifer jasnmar's Avatar
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    Re: Rules Meeting

    I have no problem with the Foggy mask.

    I believe that by rule, the way it is written today, it is illegal.

    If it is not illegal, the rule needs to be clarified.

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  23. #23
    Lifer isaac_'s Avatar
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    Re: Rules Meeting

    So, what was covered?


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

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  24. #24
    Animal Hill Super Motard Champion Johnny B's Avatar
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    Re: Rules Meeting

    Quote Originally Posted by jasnmar View Post
    I have no problem with the Foggy mask.

    I believe that by rule, the way it is written today, it is illegal.

    If it is not illegal, the rule needs to be clarified.
    The Foggy Mask is legal. Wording on the rule is going to be modified.

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  25. #25
    Animal Hill Super Motard Champion Johnny B's Avatar
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    Re: Rules Meeting

    Quote Originally Posted by Kurlon View Post
    Finally, the list is in the rule book, much appreciated. That said, the last line which I've marked in bold should be tossed. We're talking about a safety issue. The argument that "I didn't know what was legal 'cause I couldn't find a list" is no longer valid, it'll be in the rule book. So if you roll up to tech on Saturday morning with refined weasel squeezings in your radiator hoping Tech can do a pavement scuff test and send you along your way with a thumbs up, you should be smacked, shown the list and sent back to your pits. Giving a sample to Tech for later eval with hopes of it being approved for the next event is fine, but providing a cop out option is just going to keep us in the wild west as to who's got what in their bikes.
    There is no "spot test" for additives. In addition to checking for slipperiness, a sample must be applied to the track in order to determine how easily it can be cleaned off the surface. This definitely is not done on a same weekend basis.

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    Johnny B. (the other one) ®
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