Can you teach fast?

[Doc]

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In the 8 years or so that I have been track coaching I have seen only 1 person who I knew would be a fantastic racer immediately and about 5 who I knew would be really good right off the bat. The talent must be there.

Ahh... Thanks Degs.

[Doc]

Alot of good points here, but to anyone who doesn't believe in natural, or "un-learned" talent on a motorcycle, consider this example. A group of guys all about the same age, from the same neighborhood start riding bikes together as kids. As they grow up, they get dirtbikes and ride together every weekend. Even though they are all similar in their experience, one or two of the group will definitely still be faster than the rest, even if they ride the same bikes. Now this is not to say that we can be born with some moto-genetics or anything, but some people do have genetic make-ups that allow them to process the necessary info required to ride a motorcycle better than others. That type of person could go on to be super-fast at a racetrack with some proper teaching and seat time.

Or they just have bigger balls... or have a different cost/benefit risk analysis, not necessarily "natural talent"

[OreoGaborio]

Agreed... but then you gotta figure just how much risk they're taking

fast guy 'A' who risks a lot & likely crashes a lot has big balls
equally fast guy 'B' who risks little and likely crashes little has skill

"To finish first, one must first finish"

[Alvecchio]

I think one thing that hasn't been addressed is "Desire".

How bad do you want it? Are you a Perfectionist? Its up in the air if something like this can be taught but what I do know is that not many things were ever accomplished throughout life and history without the right attitude,desire, Dedication, blood, sweat and tears. IMHO, I have seen various people in various walks of life accomplish great things but the ones who truly stood out had that attitude that they weren't gonna be told otherwise.

Quoted for truth

[Doc]

Agreed... but then you gotta figure just how much risk they're taking

fast guy 'A' who risks a lot & likely crashes a lot has big balls
equally fast guy 'B' who risks little and likely crashes little has skill

"To finish first, one must first finish"

I don't know about "equally"... Fast guy A could have "skill" but he also may have less "fear" or a higher SENSE of control, he may be more comfortable on the ragged edge or he may just not have the skill to know where the edge is and be lucky

Fast guy A may get there faster BUT he may also crash out of a race or injure himself and his balls

Fast Guy B may never win a championship or have "the fast" or it just might take him longer to get there but he might live longer and be able to use said balls. Therefore his cost/benefit analysis is different than Fast Guy A.

Fast guy B MAY be just as skilled or talented but he might not be as fast.

[OreoGaborio]

I know "equally" because that was the scenario that I presented to eliminate the speed variable.

If you take two equally fast riders, with one crashing a lot more than the other, obviously there's an imbalance in their skill/feel since the guy that crashes a lot has to assume more risk to maintain the same pace.

[Alvecchio]

I know "equally" because that was the scenario that I presented to eliminate the speed variable.

If you take two equally fast riders, with one crashing a lot more than the other, obviously there's an imbalance in their skill/feel since the guy that crashes a lot has to assume more risk to maintain the same pace.

This is a perfect example of how people develop a learning curve. The rider that slowly applies new skills and knowledge progresses consistently and surely until some other internal or external barrier presents itself. The riskier rider's curve would look more like a stock market line graph. Trial and error does not facilitate learning unless the methods/theories/skills are defined and controlled. You might reach the edge sooner taking more risk but unless he truly knows why he went down then he will not truly learn. You may eventually connect the dots but it will ultimately get you to the same place with a bigger repair bill/more scars.

[OreoGaborio]

Ken, we need to give this guy a job

Er.... On second thought..... I don't want him comin after my job

[Doc]

I know "equally" because that was the scenario that I presented to eliminate the speed variable.

If you take two equally fast riders, with one crashing a lot more than the other, obviously there's an imbalance in their skill/feel since the guy that crashes a lot has to assume more risk to maintain the same pace.

I was pointing out the "Natural talent" of Fast Guy A... this would make him not equal to fast guy B who does not have said "natural talent"

[Jim]

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I'm pretty sure being a midget with a giant head or a beefcake with an affinity for chrome are predetermining factors preventing the fast from ever truly being attained.

[csmutty]

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If someone can teach Jimmy here to be fast then I say it's true

[nt650hawk]

If you take two equally fast riders, with one crashing a lot more than the other, obviously there's an imbalance in their skill/feel since the guy that crashes a lot has to assume more risk to maintain the same pace.

Its the bike that made him crash all the time not the rider

[Paul_E_D]

Gino, it was the tires!

[Stromper]

Optimism ?

[OreoGaborio]

Track was cold

[Doc]

If someone can teach Jimmy here to be fast then I say it's true

Well, it hasn't happened yet...

[smf]

This is a perfect example of how people develop a learning curve. The rider that slowly applies new skills and knowledge progresses consistently and surely until some other internal or external barrier presents itself. The riskier rider's curve would look more like a stock market line graph. Trial and error does not facilitate learning unless the methods/theories/skills are defined and controlled. You might reach the edge sooner taking more risk but unless he truly knows why he went down then he will not truly learn. You may eventually connect the dots but it will ultimately get you to the same place with a bigger repair bill/more scars.

very well said.

[Ken C]

Ken, we need to give this guy a job

Er.... On second thought..... I don't want him comin after my job

...but is he FAST?

[OreoGaborio]

Not yet.... but we can teach it!

[Chippertheripper]

Get in line alvecchio.

[lrrs313]

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Not asphalt racing, but some similarity applies:

Natural talent -- Jason Lawrence

That's not taught, worked on, practice, or anything. If he put any real effort into his riding, he would have won a lot more races than he has.

I agree with a lot of posts on here that people can be taught to be faster, but I still don't think you can reach the top levels without some genetics. Call it what you want, be it natural talent or just a physical or mental advantage, but the truly elite racers are not the same as everyone else.

[Alvecchio]

...but is he FAST?

The answer is no haha. Working on it. Tell ya what Ken I'll trade ya some personal instruction on a backhoe for some personal riding instruction ;-)

[Alvecchio]

Let's not forget the importance of time to master skills. There are some subtle pointers in some of the arguments that learning is time sensitive. It really can be done at any time in a persons life, it just may take longer or need a different approach. Also the drive to learn kinda diminishes. "can't teach an old dog new tricks" complacency also kicks in at some point.

[Turbocharged]

You can teach certain things, but you are only talking if the person does not have the ability to learn. Some people "get it" right away. Those people know what you're talking about, commit the information to long term memory, quickly grasp the concept, and know how to use the information.
So what I'm saying is that, in a way, you do have to be born with a certain amount of natural abilities, but not necessarily riding abilities, more like learning abilities.
Obviously a certain amount of hand/eye coordination or dexterity are required, but I'm mostly focusing on the mental aspects of being fast, not the physical ones.
I have met some people who simply cannot grasp even the basic concept of riding a motorcycle. My sister is a prime example. I have tried to teach her, but she just doesn't understand how to "communicate" with the bike. She knows all the controls, and the concept of riding, but she tries to push the bike around, instead of working with it, leaning, and shifting weight.
Some people are like that. All the knowledge in the world about how to be fast doesn't help without the mental capability to implement it. So it's not so much about having natural or genetic talent, as it is having a natural mental ability to develop the talent.

[BrianC]

You can teach certain things, but you are only talking if the person does not have the ability to learn. Some people "get it" right away. Those people know what you're talking about, commit the information to long term memory, quickly grasp the concept, and know how to use the information.
So what I'm saying is that, in a way, you do have to be born with a certain amount of natural abilities, but not necessarily riding abilities, more like learning abilities.
Obviously a certain amount of hand/eye coordination or dexterity are required, but I'm mostly focusing on the mental aspects of being fast, not the physical ones.
I have met some people who simply cannot grasp even the basic concept of riding a motorcycle. My sister is a prime example. I have tried to teach her, but she just doesn't understand how to "communicate" with the bike. She knows all the controls, and the concept of riding, but she tries to push the bike around, instead of working with it, leaning, and shifting weight.
Some people are like that. All the knowledge in the world about how to be fast doesn't help without the mental capability to implement it. So it's not so much about having natural or genetic talent, as it is having a natural mental ability to develop the talent.

Agreed, but genes play a large part in determining wheter a person has that "natural mental ability".
I'm also starting to agree that money does play a part. If I lose my job I'm going to be going pretty slow next year. Like 0 mph.