Updating knob and tube wiring

[nick5446]

Hi all,

So I am in the process of buying my first house; a c.1859 cottage in Salem, MA. We're under agreement now and set to close in about a month.

The house has knob and tube wiring throughout, with a brand new circuit breaker and new meter outside. We did a home inspection and everything works (save for an outlet or light here and there) and is up to code. It's all been well-maintained, not hacked together, etc. There is a new 220v circuit for the dryer, but everything else is pretty original (I think).

A couple of questions and random thoughts...
- Should I replace all of this soon? Current owner has quotes of $9k to do it all. I know an electrician who will do it without pulling permits for about half that...bad idea?
- I don't really want to do it piecemeal, but the garage only has one outlet, and I would want to add several grounded 110v outlets very soon. Also, the kitchen, which also has a severe shortage of outlets, is going to eventually need a remodel. When the kitchen is re-done it will most likely not be one of those $50k jobs where everything is gutted, it will most likely be done by me over several weekends and be a "modest" remodel. What gets screwed up if I re-wire before or after the kitchen? It's got an electric range.

I think my options are something like this:
1) Leave as-is and update as-needed (garage within 6 months, kitchen within 24 months)
2) Re-do it all for $9k (probably wait a year or more)
3) Re-do it all for $4500 (probably within a year)

Apologies in advance...I'm pretty green in this department.

[burnham]

Do it all! Some insurance companies won't even cover a house with knob and tube, talk to your insurance company before you do anything. Knob and tube is an open air conductor, is there any in contact with insulation? If there is, it's not up to code. Don't take the home inspectors word on too much, they're often wrong. Pull permits. Do it now if you can, it's a lot easier working in a house that isn't filled with stuff. Congrats on the first house.

[nick5446]

Thanks! I've heard mixed reviews on the insurance...it's insured now, and I have a friend w/ k&t that's insured, but I have heard that many won't cover it, or that they'll give me 60 or 90 days to update it. That reminds me though, I need to find someone to insure it!

You're right about the insulation - it is touching insulation and I forgot that the inspector brought that up.

[burnham]

As far as rewiring the kitchen prior to remodeling it, it depends more on the layout than anything else. If the layout works now and you are just going to be replacing cabinets, I wouldn't worry about doing the electrical work well in advance. If you're going to be moving appliance locations, or walls, you will probably have to adjust some of your wiring later. It's not really a big deal, you'll just be paying to do something twice.

I was just looking at the three options you had listed in your original post. I would rewire the whole place now to the tune of $9000, but I see that wasn't an option. I think one way to tackle it would be to pull some new circuits in the house now. Maybe one for the bathrooms, bedrooms, family/living room,and a couple in the kitchen. Not a complete rewire right now, but some dedicated circuits installed now that you could branch off of in the future. This way, you're getting the house partially rewired now, and this is work that will need to be done at some point anyway. Also, while you're not replacing all of the K&T right away this way, you will have some new safe circuits that can handle load without burning the place down. Knob and tube can go for a long time, but when people start plugging in a lot of electronics, an AC, a hair dryer, a plasma TV a ...... well, that's when shit goes downhill.
Another thing, is the house horsehair plaster? If it is, cut your new outlets into the baseboard (if it's tall enough). Cutting stuff into horsehair sucks, and you usually make a mess of the walls.

[nick5446]

I didn't feel great about doing it little by little - I was worried this would lead it basically being a hack job. Is that not true? But yeah, the kitchen remodel will most likely keep the layout. I could do it all right away for about $9k, but that's just more money I don't really have. I could come up with it, but it would suck. Having the other guy do it off the books for half that is a little more palpable.

Yeah, it is horsehair plaster - thanks for the tip!

[burnham]

I wouldn't say doing part of the job right now would make for a hack job, but it makes things harder. It is a much less efficient way of doing work. You also have to consider what it's like to do this work after you've moved into the house and settled in. Even the outlet boxes that are in place now will most likely have to be changed out. Then you have to cut in new overhead lights and smoke detectors. Even when you hold a vacuum right next to where you're cutting, shut and dust still gets everywhere. Often when you cut the wood lathe, plaster will flake off. With horse hair, you really have to plan on patching and painting on every area you cut holes. If you get away without it, you got lucky. You can cut it with a roto zip and an oscillating tool, but it's hell on blades.

Doing work without permits scares me now. Towns are getting wise to people doing that, and sometimes make an issue of it when people go to sell a house. Most romex wire has the date it was made printed on it now.

[nick5446]

I wasn't super concerned about the permit thing, but I did wonder if it would come up at a future sale. And if so, what would happen?

That said, there is an open permit for electrical work on the house right now. Not sure how long it's good for, but it was just pulled in September when they did the new circuit breaker. Think that would cover the re-wire too? Even still, it was $30 according the permit.

[burnham]

No. The permit is only for the electrician who pulled it, and should say specifically what the scope of the work is.

[nick5446]

Yeah, all it says is "New 100A service"

Maybe the owner pulled it to re-wire before sale, and then decided not to?

[imkindafkedup]

If you'd be interested in a Mass Save energy assessment I can come out and let you know about the efficiency of the home. There's assistance offered through the program to help remove the K&T so that that you can improve safely the efficiency and comfort of the home. PM me if interested. The company I work for is Next Step Living.

[nick5446]

PM sent!