re-honing/ringing = less smoke?

[breakdirt916]

if I have a '96 XR80R which will start to throw more and more blue smoke under WOT, the warmer it gets, and the valves, camshaft, cylinder, gaskets, and rings look ok.

So will re-honing the cylinder and re-ringing the piston potentially reduce the smoking on the premise that the smoke I'm getting is from a very minute leak around the ring?

what else should I replace while the top end is apart to potentially reduce the smoking?

[TheIglu]

Just rebuild the entire thing. It's not worth the 15 minutes to take the engine completely apart to have to do it again if it doesn't fix it.

Or, just leave it. Still runs/rides fine, right?

[Paul_E_D]

The motor will fail if you leave it. I'm thinking the bore is worn. A re-ring should improve it. but... Bigbore kit?

[CMG241]

what about valves

[SSearchVT]

While it's apart check everything. New valve seals are a breeze in those things, and gives you a perfect time to look at the entire valve seat condition.

A close look at the bore (size and condition) will tell you a lot. If the bore is within spec and doesn't have any gouges - run a ball hone through it. New rings are cheap - especially since you're in there already - double check the end gap. If you need to bore - you're into it for an oversized piston and rings.

[breakdirt916]

While it's apart check everything. New valve seals are a breeze in those things, and gives you a perfect time to look at the entire valve seat condition.

A close look at the bore (size and condition) will tell you a lot. If the bore is within spec and doesn't have any gouges - run a ball hone through it. New rings are cheap - especially since you're in there already - double check the end gap. If you need to bore - you're into it for an oversized piston and rings.

the bore of the cylinder is within spec without any gouges, so we honed the cylinder with a brake cylinder hone (regular car engine hones were too big), so we're definitely going to get new rings, and allow that to seat properly

aside from the valve seals as well, is there anything else I should replace that might cause the blue smoke?

[SSearchVT]

If the valve guides are worn and you had bad seals - it would smoke. Take a look at the edge of the rings you took off. If they are shiny or cracked - there's the problem and everything else is a 'while you're in there' type of part.

Also - how was the bike taken care of? Even the tightest engine will smoke if it is running very thinned down used oil and ridden like it was stolen.

[breakdirt916]

If the valve guides are worn and you had bad seals - it would smoke. Take a look at the edge of the rings you took off. If they are shiny or cracked - there's the problem and everything else is a 'while you're in there' type of part.

Also - how was the bike taken care of? Even the tightest engine will smoke if it is running very thinned down used oil and ridden like it was stolen.

hmm..the bike's at a friends house right now, but when I looked at it, I don't remember the rings looking cracked or particularly shiny

and as for care, I changed the oil often (hoping it would get rid of the smoke), adjusted the air/fuel and idle speed carefully, and cleaned the air filter, but otherwise did a lot of wheelies and power sliding on it

today I just ordered a head gasket, lower end gasket, rings, valve seals and clutch, which might be here by this weekend and will hopefully clean this thing up

thanks for the help so far

[breakdirt916]

ok, so I got the new rings, but they don't fit: the top two rings are too thick to slip into the cylinder and the lower crown-looking copper ring is also too thick to fit

the measurements of the cylinder match up to a stock bore, so how can I figure out/get the right rings?

I started a new thread in the maintenance section here

also, does anyone have a valve spring compressor I could borrow?

[Paul_E_D]

You don't need a spring compressor for that. Just put the head on the bench with something firm under the valves and tap the spring retainer with a mallet.

I don't understand your description. Too thick to put in the PISTON? thickness wouldn't be an issue in the cylinder...

[breakdirt916]

[QUOTE=Paul_E_D;473064]You don't need a spring compressor for that. Just put the head on the bench with something firm under the valves and tap the spring retainer with a mallet.

I don't understand your description. Too thick to put in the PISTON? thickness wouldn't be an issue in the cylinder...

the thickness of the rings exceed the space in the piston for the rings to slide into

here is the old ring (fits in the piston):



here is the new ring (won't fit in the piston because it's too thick):



and here is the new crown-shaped ring on the left...old one on the right, note that they are a different thickness and overall shape:


I sort of suck at explaining things, but does that help to show what I mean?

[breakdirt916]

You don't need a spring compressor for that. Just put the head on the bench with something firm under the valves and tap the spring retainer with a mallet.

if you tap the spring retainer, will the little clip just pop out?

[Kurlon]

You got a ring set for the wrong bike it appears. Or Honda superseded the old piston and ring combo and no one at the counter told you. What year/model bike and what part number is the ring set?

[Paul_E_D]

OK, Yeah, helpful pics. Go back to the parts counter and order again. Make sure the year is correct on the 'fiche

Yes, the retainers will pop right out. It may take some tries to get the knack, but it's quick and easy once you get it. You can use a socket that fits on the retainer really well and tap on that. a little english will get it done. To get them back on you can just bulldog the springs down with your hands while slipping the retainers into the groove.

[breakdirt916]

You got a ring set for the wrong bike it appears...

yep, that's what happened

when I bought the bike, the seller told me it was a '96 XR80R, but according the VIN, it's a '00 which has different rings

so I got a full refund on the '96 rings, ordered some new '00 rings, a clutch cover gasket, sprocket cover gasket, and valve seals

it should be ready within 2-3 days, so hopefully I'll be up and running by this weekend

[SSearchVT]

To get the valves apart - put a balled up rag on the workbench, put the cylinder head over the rag. Take a deep socket about the diameter of the spring, put it on the spring retainer and tap with a hammer. The clips should pop out and be sitting inside the socket.

Little springs like these you shouldn't really need a compressor. Strong thumbs and someone to install the clips are about it...

[breakdirt916]

To get the valves apart - put a balled up rag on the workbench, put the cylinder head over the rag. Take a deep socket about the diameter of the spring, put it on the spring retainer and tap with a hammer. The clips should pop out and be sitting inside the socket.

Little springs like these you shouldn't really need a compressor. Strong thumbs and someone to install the clips are about it...

bah...I'm going to have to bring it somewhere...I tried this tap method, but it just feels like I'm banging on metal and/or scratching the spring retainer

I borrowed a valve spring compressor from a forum member, but it's a little too big (and presumably for a car)

otherwise, if you ever have to do this for yourself, don't take the engine out if you don't have to...it's a PITA to get back in

and the new rings fit perfectly...hopefully it'll stop the smoking and I won't have to replace the valve seals at all

[breakdirt916]

ok, new question:

if the rotor "T" timing marks are faded, but I can see the "F" mark, and a faint line right next to it, is it safe to assume that the faint line next to the "F" mark is the "T" timing mark?



if that's the case, then is it ok if the crankcase triangle doesn't match up with it perfectly?

if not, how do I know that the engine is at TDC before re-attaching the cam chain to the cam chain sprocket/camshaft?

[Paul_E_D]

Mmm..., no, and no. Better find a manual with pics...

[SVRACER01]

is this a "T"? its more evident in your pic.
take some sandpaper to it and i bet you will find it.

[breakdirt916]

I ended up just taking the cylinder head back off and checking which line was aligned with the crankcase mark when the piston was at TDC

as it turns out that the faint line next to the "F" mark is indeed the "T" mark

[breakdirt916]

ok, so the next few steps are:
-figure out why the clutch isn't disengaging (must be something in the cover?)
-get/replace the clutch cover gasket (which is leaking now)
-figure out a way to tune the carbs so it stays running
-figure out why I have more bolts left over than I started with

otherwise, I can get the bike to start if the choke is completely closed...so I need to do some carb tuning before I can actually start riding it

also, it still smokes (if not a little more than before), so is there a possibility that the engine is just cleaning out gunk or water before the new rings and gaskets seat properly?

[breakdirt916]

ok, I've been trying to get it to idle for the last 1/2 hour or so, and I think the smoke is white this time...meaning there just might be some water in the oil or inside the crankcase

I'm going to change the oil and see how it goes

also, I replaced the clutch friction plates, and now when the clutch is engaged, it doesn't really "grab"...rather it sort of slips the entire time, and even more so when riding up an incline or at high engine rpm's

any ideas on why a clutch would do that? do the plates just need to adhere after a few rides and an oil change? I don't remember needing any such "break in" period when I changed the clutch on the ninja or the FZR

the springs seemed pretty firm

[TheIglu]

Consider the possibility of having an air leak in the carb. I'm pretty sure mine does and that's why it's so tough to have idle consistently and you can't whack the throttle open without it puttering out.

[Paul_E_D]

Do you have clutch plates from the wrong year as well?