Helmet, Snell required or DOT-only OK?

[ZDan]

It looks like Snell is not required, just want to double-check. Any differences in helmet requirements between the track-day hosting entities?

TIA!

[Qfactor]

most orgs will work with you. Contact them ahead of time (sooner the better) to inquire about your specific helmet.

most full face helmets are Snell rated.

Q

[Honclfibr]

Most orgs will indeed require SNELL cert, or something from one of the equivalent euro standard (ECE, etc). DOT is rarely enough, you can get a salad bowl with a DOT sticker.

[Woodsy]

If you find a full face helmet without a snell rating that helmet is not worth buying. the DOT rules are pretty weak. Keep in mind all those skid lids that the harley guys wear are DOT and i would not want to go down in one of those. I think the only full face that snell will not consider is a modular design

[Ken C]

From Tony's Track Days web site:

HELMET: At the NJ track, a SNELL 2000 or 2005 helmet is required. This is a NJ state law (one that we do not agree with, by the way!).

At the New Hampshire track, an UNDAMAGED, full-faced helmet with DOT, SNELL, or BSI rating. A high-quality "flip up" type helmet will also be allowed.

[ZDan]

FWIW, I'm considering the HJC IS-16, which has an inner tinted visor that can be rotated out of line of sight. I frequently find myself needing two visors on the same day or ride even.
http://www.helmetharbor.com/Products...ductID/477610#

I bet that the internal rotating visor is part of the reason this helmet is not Snell-rated. They likely would have had to make the shell very thick/stiff in the region where the inner visor rotates in order to pass the Snell standard.

Anyone who thinks a Snell-rating is a "must" should read this (linked at the Tony's Track Days site btw):
http://www.motorcyclistonline.com/ge...iew/index.html
Food for thought, at the very least...

[ZDan]

From Tony's Track Days web site:

HELMET: At the NJ track, a SNELL 2000 or 2005 helmet is required. This is a NJ state law (one that we do not agree with, by the way!).

At the New Hampshire track, an UNDAMAGED, full-faced helmet with DOT, SNELL, or BSI rating. A high-quality "flip up" type helmet will also be allowed.

Thanks! I've done one track day with Tony's, probably will do another this year.

[Woodsy]

Anyone who thinks a Snell-rating is a "must" should read this (linked at the Tony's Track Days site btw):
http://www.motorcyclistonline.com/ge...iew/index.html
Food for thought, at the very least...

I read this and I still think the SNELL rating is a must. From what I gather it may not be "enough" but it is still better than DOT. fact is that all the standards can be improved upon (and should) but while the Snell rating is not quite up to par, DOT is abysmal! FWIW it is your head, how much protection would you like (or more appropriately how much do you really have to protect?). After reading this article I still walk away thinking that the Snell logo is an absolute must!

[ZDan]

My impression is that the Snell standard forces shells to be far too stiff, exposing the brain too much greater acceleration (g's).

Dale Earnhardt didn't die because his car wasn't stiff/strong enough, he died at least in part because it was TOO stiff/strong! Same deal.

No helmet is perfect for all types of impacts. Personally, I'd rather have the softer helmet that reduces the g's my brain is exposed to for most impacts, rather than the uberstiff/strong Snell helmet that protects better against low %-ile hard multiple impacts but exposes the brain to greater g-s at lesser impacts.

FWIW I'm not going to be wearing the minimum DOT labeled brain-bucket available in any case.

[katana0215]

I read this and I still think the SNELL rating is a must. From what I gather it may not be "enough" but it is still better than DOT. fact is that all the standards can be improved upon (and should) but while the Snell rating is not quite up to par, DOT is abysmal! FWIW it is your head, how much protection would you like (or more appropriately how much do you really have to protect?). After reading this article I still walk away thinking that the Snell logo is an absolute must!

have you read the "Blowing the Lid off" article that was in Motorcyclist?

[Honclfibr]

I have, and I agree with Woodsy.

[ZDan]

For sure there are different points of view on the subject. I've read it, and I tend to agree with the conclusions (i.e., Snell standard forces helmets too be so stiff/strong as to impart greater g's to the brain in many/possibly most types of impact than "lesser" non-Snell-rated helmets.)

In the end, having a good helmet on is infinitely more important than whether it's Snell or DOT (yeah, I know the Snell proponents will claim that if it's NOT Snell rated then it's NOT a good helmet, I disagree).

Mainly, I just want to know whether or not I can use the HJC IS-16 at track events. Looks like I can at NHMS with Tony's at least.

[Woodsy]

have you read the "Blowing the Lid off" article that was in Motorcyclist?

that is the article i am refering to

[Honclfibr]

For sure there are different points of view on the subject. I've read it, and I tend to agree with the conclusions (i.e., Snell standard forces helmets too be so stiff/strong as to impart greater g's to the brain in many/possibly most types of impact than "lesser" non-Snell-rated helmets.)

I agree with those conclusions as well. However, I believe that SNELL rated helmets are designed that way intentionally, as they are intended not to minimize the g forces imparted to the head in many/most impacts, but rather to minimize the impacts in which the g forces imparted to the head exceed the threshold for permanent brain injury/death. Designing for the second does mean compromising the first. This is the type of helmet that I want on my head, and why I will only use SNELL rated helmets.

This, however, is about your head. So it doesn't really matter what I think.

[ZDan]

Question is, what is that threshold? Snell says 300g's. Others apparently say otherwise...

Personally, I'm not too worried one way or the other. I'll take the helmet that suits my preferences for fit, feel, features, look, etc. whether Snell-rated or DOT-only. Again, I think that the difference in protection between Snell and same-helmet-type DOT-only is infinitesimal compared to the difference between either of those and a "brain-bucket" style helmet, or no helmet at all.

[Honclfibr]

Again, I think that the difference in protection between Snell and same-helmet-type DOT-only is infinitesimal compared to the difference between either of those and a "brain-bucket" style helmet, or no helmet at all.

Well, see, that's just not true at all. Case in point, this helmet is DOT approved:

http://helmetsplace.com/pro1181804.html

[Woodsy]

Question is, what is that threshold? Snell says 300g's. Others apparently say otherwise...

Personally, I'm not too worried one way or the other. I'll take the helmet that suits my preferences for fit, feel, features, look, etc. whether Snell-rated or DOT-only. Again, I think that the difference in protection between Snell and same-helmet-type DOT-only is infinitesimal compared to the difference between either of those and a "brain-bucket" style helmet, or no helmet at all.

I disagree wholeheartedly. Keep in mind that those "Brain Buckets" you cited are DOT helmets! The difference in G-Load in the tests between Snell and DOT is not, in my opinion, intentionally designed to be that way for the benifit of the rider. The DOT standard is the BARE MINIMUM that is required to possibly safe your life. Look at the helmets the DOT approves, while your full face may exceed the protection afforded by the standard skid lid, it is not required to and there is no way to know that it does. Snell has years of research into helmets of all types and was founded with the mission to save lives. like i said the standard is not perfect but I think it affords more protection than a standard DOT helmet and tests show that in a number of impacts it does. It all comes down to personal choice but for my head it is Snell only.

[ZDan]

What I wrote:
"the difference in protection between Snell and same-helmet-type DOT-only is infinitesimal compared to the difference between either of those and a "brain-bucket" style helmet, or no helmet at all."

In case anyone missed it, I am not talking about buying a 'bucket of the type linked to in the post above.

I am not trying to argue that any old helmet that has a DOT rating is as good as a Snell-rated helmet.

[Woodsy]

What I wrote:
"the difference in protection between Snell and same-helmet-type DOT-only is infinitesimal compared to the difference between either of those and a "brain-bucket" style helmet, or no helmet at all."

In case anyone missed it, I am not talking about buying a 'bucket of the type linked to in the post above.

I am not trying to argue that any old helmet that has a DOT rating is as good as a Snell-rated helmet.

the argument on the other side is you have no way of knowing that because your full face is being held to the same standard as those buckets

[Sheppo]

My impression is that the Snell standard forces shells to be far too stiff, exposing the brain too much greater acceleration (g's).

Dale Earnhardt didn't die because his car wasn't stiff/strong enough, he died at least in part because it was TOO stiff/strong! Same deal.

No helmet is perfect for all types of impacts. Personally, I'd rather have the softer helmet that reduces the g's my brain is exposed to for most impacts, rather than the uberstiff/strong Snell helmet that protects better against low %-ile hard multiple impacts but exposes the brain to greater g-s at lesser impacts.

FWIW I'm not going to be wearing the minimum DOT labeled brain-bucket available in any case.

DE died cause he hit a wall at 200 MPH. His head didn't hit anything, he snapped his neck when his head snapped forward when he went from 200 to 0 in a heart beat. This is why they now require the HANS device to hold the head to the body in suddent impacts like this. He could have been wearing a brain bucket and it wouldn't have mattered.

[ZDan]

the argument on the other side is you have no way of knowing that because your full face is being held to the same standard as those buckets

Obviously a good full-coverage DOT helmet is going to have a better chance of protecting you in the event of an "incident" than the smallest DOT bucket you can find.

Some will always believe in the Snell magic, no matter what, but based on the objective testing done, I think that it might be leading to helmets that are too stiff for the riders good in most instances.

For sure there are cases where you'd be better off with a Snell rated helmet, but it appears that there are far more cases where a "softer" helmet would be safer.

[ZDan]

DE died cause he hit a wall at 200 MPH. His head didn't hit anything, he snapped his neck when his head snapped forward when he went from 200 to 0 in a heart beat. This is why they now require the HANS device to hold the head to the body in suddent impacts like this. He could have been wearing a brain bucket and it wouldn't have mattered.

In my analogy, Earnhardt's car is analogous to a motorcycle rider's helmet, Earnhardt himself is analogous to the rider's brain. What killed him was being subjected to intense acceleration. If his car had been less stiff/more compliant, he would have had a better chance of survival.

He didn't go "from 200 to z in a heartbeat". His speed perpendicular to the wall was probably less than 50mph (still a HUGE impact, of course). If the front of the car had been designed to crumple and deform under impact rather than being overly stiff and strong, he would have had a much better chance.

[highsider]

What kind of oil should I use?

[TTD]

I'm staying out of this as much as possible... but I will say this.

While we allow other certifications besides SNELL (such as DOT), that does not mean we would pass one of the beanies or other type helmets that have a sticker on them and are obviously not safe.

Our belief is that a quality full faced helmet that fits properly is the most important thing.

A poor fitting helmet is way more dangerous than arguing over the "standard" to which it is certified.

It drives me nuts to read reports of helmets that "come off" in a crash.

I've watched a lot of motorcycle racing over the years, and have seen some pretty horrific accidents... and have yet to see a helmet that wasn't still attached to a head.