question about braking before corners

[Mgiossi]

hello everyone,
i had my first track day with bostonmoto this last year and ill start by saying i love it, im addicted and i cant wait to go back next year. im obviously still learning every time i go out but one thing i forgot to ask when i was there with bostonmoto was how deep do you break into the turns? i have always been under the understanding that you want to be off the breaks and in your proper gear before entering a corner but some things i have seen of late have shown me other wise. i might be getting all the wrong info there so please excuse the question if its stupid. so how long are you on that front break before you let go? especially coming off the straight at loudon onto turn 1? thats the one im most interested in learning to get max breaking lol. thanks again everyone and thanks to hanna and dave at the track day for helping me as much as they did

[Kurlon]

I like to be done with my braking at my tip in/pitch in marker. I have been known to brake slightly past that point but I'm trying to break that habit.

[BrianC]

I guess it really depends on skill level, as some guys will brake all the way to the apex, and others will already be off the brakes before they lean it in. In my most recent conversation with a fast guy, he told me to brake all the way to the apex, holding the lever with 1 or 2 fingers and make my gas-on from brake transition 1 smooth process. Basically come into the turn on the brakes, slowly release the lever as you are about to hit max lean angle, and start rolling on the throttle. All in one smooth process as to help prevent the chassis from becoming unsettled. I can say that all season I may have once or twice actually come close to doing this mainly after coming into t1 faster than usual and just realizing that I need to brake basically all the way or I'm gonna run off the track.

[loudog]

T1 is a good spot for trail braking if you have the confidence to do so. I try to brake until the apex there.

[Pittenger5]

I trailbrake like a motherfucker. Even in the rain. Either Im good, or lucky. Not sure which.

[butcher bergs]

Being that you are a new track rider, I'd be very cautious going into T1 trail braking. If you hit the wrong line (which is just off the very inside of the turn) you hit the pavement transition and/ or a series of small bumps and if you're not prepared for how the bike will react, you might get bitten.

Just be cautious and learn where those bumps are first.

[Doc]

Trailbraking is an advanced technique. Work on pushing your brake marker back before tip in and getting on the gas sooner after the apex, less coasting off throttle etc before worrying about trailbraking.

I did a 1 on 1 school with Doug Polen and he is a master of trailbraking, it is insane how late and deep he brakes with the lean angles he was at and he wasn't even pushing it. I also did a 2 up ride with Jason Pridmore who also trailbraked pretty deeply (even 2 up).

You can do it early in your "career" but I don't believe it is nessecary until later, I think there are plenty of other areas that give bigger gains quicker.

I try and get all my braking done before tip in, I will many times be braking during "pre turn" but like to be off the brakes before I really throw it in.
If I find myself trailbraking up to the apex I think that I could have braked harder sooner to keep my corner speed up.

[BrianC]

so how long are you on that front break before you let go? especially coming off the straight at loudon onto turn 1? thats the one im most interested in learning to get max breaking lol.

Doc touched upon it, but yeah it really depends on where you are getting on the brakes too. Obviously you don't need to trailbrake if you are on the brakes too early.

[Doc]

Doc touched upon it, but yeah it really depends on where you are getting on the brakes too. Obviously you don't need to trailbrake if you are on the brakes too early.

If you set your corner speed prior to the apex you don't need to trail brake.

[BrianC]

If you set your corner speed prior to the apex you don't need to trail brake.

...and the later you set that corner speed, the faster you will be right?

[Eric Baker]

i find myself trail braking a lot, almost every corner. It's just what feels comfortable to me cause I tend to come in hot and still need to scrub off a little speed into the corner. I would start getting comfortable with not doing it, then as your speed and skill increase, start possibly incorporating it.

[Doc]

...and the later you set that corner speed, the faster you will be right?

It depends on your final speed after braking.

[union]

If you want to learn how to trail brake find yourself a motard to ride. Speeds arent as high and they are a ton more maneuverable then a sport bike so they are a bit more forgiving. Ive never felt more comfortable on a bike that was moving all over the place. If my R6 titches in a corner I better be hanging on good. The motard wiggles from the straight all the way through the exit of corners and it feels all natural.

Being that you are a new track rider, I'd be very cautious going into T1 trail braking. If you hit the wrong line (which is just off the very inside of the turn) you hit the pavement transition and/ or a series of small bumps and if you're not prepared for how the bike will react, you might get bitten.

Just be cautious and learn where those bumps are first.

Ive never had a problem with bumps going in too tight into 1. Other problems sure, like having the curb hit in a weird spot or losing a ton of roll speed because I screwed up the entry. A little wider then ideal is another story. There is a mean bump where the new and old pavement meet. Ive had my front tire lose contact there and its not a nice feeling.

I think T1 is the best place to work on late braking and trail braking. There is a lot of run off. The penalty there is a lot less then T3 where you will end up in a tire wall if you fuck it up.

[Ken C]

There are a lot of differing opinions on this subject.
Yes, trialbraking can be risky for someone who is not great at modulating their brakes, but it is a skill well worth learning. A lot of street riders already "trailbrake" without ever knowing it...usually when they overcook a turn and brake while leaned. This is not true trailbraking, since real trailbraking is a planned technique, whereas braking to fix a blown entry speed is a survival technique (and not the best one at that).

To answer the question, when I'm not trail braking deep into corners, I still brake just past tip-in. This provides the most suspension stability (by minimizing rebound) and helps the bike tip in. It's all in my book BTW.

You can see what I do on a faster lap by watching this video.

[tsorfas]

are you runnins about 1:20s on this vid?

[Ken C]

I had one of Loudog's lap timers on my bike and the best lap was a 1:22 flat.

[CBR929RE]

and the smoother you are on and off the brakes (and throttle) the faster you'll go and it won't feel as fast. so you'll be able to push even harder. watch Ken's video and see how smooth he is. he's probably a good 20-30 seconds a lap faster than a typical novice track rider but it looks like a walk in the park. really watch his brake work, its smooth as he pulls it in and as he lets it. the closer you are to max lean the more you have to let off the brakes but its gotta be smooth. if you just dumb it the front will want to bounce up too quickly causing a loss of traction. its really just practice and as a novice its not a big deal to worry about going all the way to the apex. I still don't brake all the way there and if I do I don't even notice I'm doing it.

[Chippertheripper]

i find myself trail braking a lot, almost every corner. It's just what feels comfortable to me cause I tend to come in hot and still need to scrub off a little speed into the corner.

to me, it just feels right. I did it on a sportish bike too.

[csmutty]

As everyone has said, trailbraking is more of an advanced technique. I would start out by looking for a marker where you currently brake for each corner. Then as you become comfortable braking at that marker find a new marker that is a little bit further into the corner and repeat until that one is comfortable. Just keep moving those markers in until your pants become soiled and you see god.

[Garandman]

Pete Kates at 1:19 top, me at 1:37 bottom.

This shows speed, not G's. But you can tell that where he is really making money is his much quicker transition in turns to be back accelerating.


If you look up "Traction Circle" you'll understand the concept about trail braking. Basically you are maximizing your use of available traction.

[Chippertheripper]

Where's the point where james's bike goes poof?

[union]

Pete Kates at 1:19 top, me at 1:37 bottom.

This shows speed, not G's. But you can tell that where he is really making money is his much quicker transition in turns to be back accelerating.


If you look up "Traction Circle" you'll understand the concept about trail braking. Basically you are maximizing your use of available traction.

Maybe we should try this next time I make it up. Im curious to see what the graph will look like.

Where's the point where james's bike goes poof?

Now thats not fair. Just for that you should let me toss your ktm around for a session.

[Mgiossi]

Just keep moving those markers in until your pants become soiled and you see god.

best quote ever

[PainfullySlow]

Trailbraking is an advanced technique. Work on pushing your brake marker back before tip in and getting on the gas sooner after the apex, less coasting off throttle etc before worrying about trailbraking.

I did a 1 on 1 school with Doug Polen and he is a master of trailbraking, it is insane how late and deep he brakes with the lean angles he was at and he wasn't even pushing it. I also did a 2 up ride with Jason Pridmore who also trailbraked pretty deeply (even 2 up).

You can do it early in your "career" but I don't believe it is nessecary until later, I think there are plenty of other areas that give bigger gains quicker.

I try and get all my braking done before tip in, I will many times be braking during "pre turn" but like to be off the brakes before I really throw it in.
If I find myself trailbraking up to the apex I think that I chould have braked harder sooner to keep my corner speed up.

This is pure wisdom here. Lots of riding experience and a great thought process rolled into a few paragraphs. Track riders would do very well to read and re-read this text.

[OreoGaborio]

If you set your corner speed prior to the apex you don't need to trail brake.

.... wat?
I think you mean prior to tip-in?