Track Tire Help

[smarblewnec]

I'm looking for some recommendations.
I have a 2004 r6 that was a former race bike. I am using it only for track days. Unfortunately at my last track day I high-sided in turn 4 at loudon. The tires I was using were Michelin Pilot pure which felt great all day until the accident. When the back end slid out it felt really greasy and it didn't seem like I had any feel as to what the rear tire was doing. This was at the end of the last LAPS day where it was about 95-98 degrees and the track was probably around 130 degrees or something. It was HOT!!! I am wondering if I may have overheated the tire and maybe I should start using a race tire or something else. ( of course I do realize the tire could have spun up due to rider error but I really wasn't pushing it too hard when the accident happened.) The only problem is I only have one set of wheels right now so I would need something that could be used at a wet or dry track day. Also, I do have tyresox tire warmers which came with the bike. Any recommendations?

[FireboltEric_MA]

It could have happened for a number of reasons.

suspension, cold tires, to much rider input, pressures were off....

Looking at the marks on tires can tell you alot.

Tuff to say w/ so little info.

I'd get a set of race take off's IF they are done, and start over, watch what the tires are telling you.

[CEO]

If you need wet and dry, race DOTs aren't the answer... a hypersport street tire like the ones you have, or the corsa III's, etc... are the ticket

[Mr. Kurtz]

Had you been keeping an eye on your tire pressures prior to your crash?

There's definitely a lot of factors that could have contributed to your crash, and I wouldn't even begin to start throwing out guesses.

A DOT approved race tire will work in dry or wet conditions, but will be far from ideal in real rain conditions. Of course, if you went to a street hypersport tire, you would trade off some grip for better wet performance. To make that decision, you have to look at how much riding you're likely to do on a rainy track.

[TimmyB]

you can still highside on $500/set tires...especially over t4.

[smarblewnec]

As far as tire pressure goes... I was consistently monitoring it in the morning and then got distracted in the afternoon when some friends arrived and was not as diligent. The higher temps and the fact that I was moving around the track a lot faster than I was earlier in the day could have caused higher tire pressure and less contact patch. I was trying to keep them around 30psi/f and 28r.

I also may have just given it too much throttle while leaned over trying to use the gas to bring me to the outside at the end of T4 to get a good entrance to T5 and 6. It was also the first day that I was dragging my knees and I may have gotten too eager about touching my knee on as many corners as I could. So I am definitely not ruling out my own lack of skill.

The part that is bothering me is how greasy it felt when the slide started. There wasn't any warning or any partial slides on previous corners. I just heard the engine wind up disproportionately to my rate of acceleration and then I was sideways.... and then I was airborne backwards.... / That is why I was wondering if I may have overheated the soft compound on the edge of the tire and therefore should try something else. The right solution is to buy a 2nd set of wheels and have both wet and dry tires but there is very little money in the budget now that I have to fix all the stuff that broke in the crash.

[DuncanMoto]

My guess is your tire pressure got too high after you heated them more and more.
You really need to check them all the time especially if you are running faster and faster times or if the temp is changing. I check after every run. PERIOD!

[Paul_E_D]

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I hate to break it to you,but that's what your first 5 or so crashes will feel like. You can't usually save a slide until you have the experience to predict the slide before it happens. It has nothing to do with tires IMO.

[smarblewnec]

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I hate to break it to you,but that's what your first 5 or so crashes will feel like. You can't usually save a slide until you have the experience to predict the slide before it happens. It has nothing to do with tires IMO.

Shit.....

[Chippertheripper]

The track is known to get greasier in the hot afternoons too.

[Jim]

what group were you riding in? wanna post a picture of the tread on the tires? were you checking PSI right when you rolled off the track? dnt use your warmers on street tires.

[Manny]

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T4 is a very common place to highside. Pressures are important but if you were checking them in the AM then I'm sure they were fine for the pm. Tires are designed to work in a range.

[smarblewnec]

what group were you riding in? wanna post a picture of the tread on the tires? were you checking PSI right when you rolled off the track? dnt use your warmers on street tires.

Jim thanks for the response,
- I was in the beginner group and by the end of the day I was passing people in each of the passing zones on each lap, so I was just about to ask for an instructor to follow me to see if I was ready for intermediate.

- I don't have the tire bc the wheel is out for repair and the tire was still on it.

- I was checking psi right off the track with a good quality gauge

- I wasn't using warmers, just mentioning that I had them if there was a recommended race tire to try, but with only one set of wheels it sounds like high performance street tires are still the way to go in case of rain.

[smarblewnec]

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T4 is a very common place to highside.

Yea people started telling me that after I highsided there. Wish someone had warned me ahead of time lol. It seems like one of the safest corners on the track at first because it is not a very sharp corner, but looks can be deceiving. Are there any other common danger spots I should know of?

[imkindafkedup]

as others said, turn 4 is common for high side. I've had a close call on a track day on turn 3 but I just kept steady on the throttle and it hooked back up. Do you recall letting off the throttle at all prior to the high side? Because turn 4 inclines, less weight is on the rear wheel and more on the front causing the rear to easily slide out under acceleration.

[smarblewnec]

as others said, turn 4 is common for high side. I've had a close call on a track day on turn 3 but I just kept steady on the throttle and it hooked back up. Do you recall letting off the throttle at all prior to the high side? Because turn 4 inclines, less weight is on the rear wheel and more on the front causing the rear to easily slide out under acceleration.

I am 95% sure I didn't let up on the throttle. Everything happened so fast that I don't think I had time to. Once I realized what happened I was already sailing through the air. There is a chance I did it unintentionally though out of instinct or something.

[OreoGaborio]

Because turn 4 inclines, less weight is on the rear wheel and more on the front causing the rear to easily slide out under acceleration.

Mmmmm not so much. Is it easier to wheelie uphill or downhill?

No, really. I'm asking you. I don't know. I've never wheelied

[CBR929RE]

Shit.....

don't listen to him. you can get lucky and save a highside turning it into an almost highside. I did it last year in T4. really dumb luck that I hit the windscreen/upper fairing and just sat back down and was able to just keep riding. Wish the novices that day had cameras cause they were all watching.

[Paul_E_D]

That's reassuring! Seriously, I wasn't trying to be a negatron, but I have done a LOT of racing, crashing and instructing. The first handful of crashes usually come as a total surprise and offer the rider very little feedback as to why it happened. Sliding on pavement is not what people think it is. Especially on michelins! Lol. Pirellis do actually make it a little easier to save, but they slide sooner as well. Regardless, beginners crash on all makes of tires and are left wondering what the hell happened. It's just how it is.

Getting lucky proves my point. That's about all the chance you have, cause you reacting to the slide, not predicting it.

[CEO]

Because turn 4 inclines, less weight is on the rear wheel and more on the front causing the rear to easily slide out under acceleration.

huh? no sir...

since you're on the gas VERY hard up the hill there, the rear has lots of weight on it... every picture of someone going up 4 if you look at the forks they are fully extended, this is why you track wide almost to the edge of the track near the top of the hill, you're accelerating hard with more trail.

it's a common place for a highside because youre leaned over, knee down, and hard on the gas.

in addition, if you're not precise with your line (staying tight to the apex/cone area), then the pavement IS slightly off camber the further out you go from the apex and there are a lot of marbles and messiness out there too.

[BLACK SQUIRREL]

don't listen to him. you can get lucky and save a highside turning it into an almost highside. I did it last year in T4. really dumb luck that I hit the windscreen/upper fairing and just sat back down and was able to just keep riding. Wish the novices that day had cameras cause they were all watching.

Since when is the Novice Trackday Group the Benchmark? You got Lucky skill had nothing to do it.

People highside in 4 Because they are not on the correct line. They get to far outside the corner. Best way to not Highside in 4 Is to be smooth and and fast through 3 The more speed you can smoothly carry through 3 the better.

Example Take a fast car go 10 miles an hour floor it The wheels spin. Take that same car go 45 and floor it No tire spin.

And buy Dunlops

[csmutty]

don't listen to him. you can get lucky and save a highside turning it into an almost highside. I did it last year in T4. really dumb luck that I hit the windscreen/upper fairing and just sat back down and was able to just keep riding. Wish the novices that day had cameras cause they were all watching.

I also saved a highside there last race. Tires just slid out after the apex of 4 and somehow I managed to ride it out.

[Chippertheripper]

Squirrelly, he means the novices were watching. They bring noobs up to the 4-9 grass to watch the advanced sessions just after lunch. (bomo)

My recommendation to all: get a dirtbike. Get used to sliding the rear around, so when it happens on your sportbike you don't do the wrong things.

[OreoGaborio]

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I love it when a former LRRS Champion posts something and immediately people dispute what he says.





Yeah, I've slid the rear up turn four many a time... But he never said it CAN'T be done

[OreoGaborio]

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And I'm with squirrel. Most highsides that I've seen in 4 were caused in part because the rider was a little off line. Typically they try to correct by adding a steering input but they continue rolling on the gas as usual.