Good place to back dat ass up? (good corner to back it in on a motard)

[Ductard]

Thinking about trying to learn to back my motard into a corner...

Setting aside the how... anybody know a good place to try it? I want to see if there's a good place to do it. I'm in Boston, I ride Loudon occasionally and I'm at NYST quite a bit. Might ride Thompson this year and doubt I'll take the motard down to Thunderbolt.

And does it take an extremely skilled rider a long time to learn, or just a track day or two for a decent rider?

I've seen videos of guys doing it in T3 at Loudon... But that's effing T3, at Loudon. I'd rather not have the EMT's trying to pull my teeth out of the tire wall.

I'm not 100% sure what type of corners it works best in (either for shaving off lap time, or just for kicks, or both), but it seems to be sharp corners at the end of straights, ~90 degrees or so. Sort of like T18 at NYST, and T1 to a lesser extent. I'm guessing that positive camber makes it a little less hairy but I could see it going either way (might not have to try as hard on the off-camber stuff).

[Chippertheripper]

Ummm, forgive me for pissing in your Cheerios, but a td is not the place to learn such a technique.
And from a couple seasons of racing a tard, such a skill is not necessary to groove around loudon.

That thing has a title, no? Go find a parking lot somewhere, and go rage.
Not to mention, you chuck it at a td trying to goof, you're wasting everyone's expensive track time.

[JettaJayGLS]

T3 is your best bet at Loudon for sure.

It is a by-product of going fast on a motard.

Easier without slipper clutch, but if you do it with a slipper you're really moving.

Pretty much, your hard on the brakes lightening the rear end. As you downshift and let out the clutch (or not using the clutch with a slipper) your engine braking is slowing your tire down until you are moving faster forward than the rear wheel is spinning. Combine that with an initiated turn and trail braking and the ass end starts to creep out. Keep on pushing your break markers back and have your trail braking dialed and it will happen eventually. You'll see the fast dudes have it dialed and initiate it.

If you watch Shane into turn three you'll see he never starts to set up his body positioning until the slide has started, which helps initiate the slide. Meaning he starts braking and turning before he moves off the seat giving the bike a bit more lean angle while still on the breaks. This gives him less contact patch as the ass end lightens and the slide happens more naturally, pointing him into the turn earlier and the slide actually scrubs off speed as well. Once he starts to reach the point of losing front end traction he'll start getting off the bike and lifting it back up, but at this point the slide is pretty much over. Compare it to someone like me who tries to keep the bike upright as possible while getting on the brakes hard to prevent a slide from occurring...

T3 is your best bet at Loudon because you are going just as fast as on the front straight (450s at least) but all your breaking can be done right before the turn with a settled bike. At T1 you start your pre-turn off the wall 100% still on the gas and begin breaking somewhere around the end of pit wall, and you are not breaking as hard at turn 1 as it is not nearly as tight as turn 3.

I agree with Chip, do not go out there trying to slide. Go out there with the mentality of pushing your markers back and improving your trail braking. Turn 3 is about the only place it will happen naturally at Loudon, can't speak for the others.

A parking lot and cones will help to, but be prepared to get going really fast to try it, or adopt a leg out riding style and slow things down.

[Paul_E_D]

Backing it in is just the result of hard, late braking. Front brake only needed. Most road courses are too fast for a motard to really back it in. Parking lots and cart tracks are the place to learn.

[Ductard]

Ummm, forgive me for pissing in your Cheerios, but a td is not the place to learn such a technique.
And from a couple seasons of racing a tard, such a skill is not necessary to groove around loudon.

That thing has a title, no? Go find a parking lot somewhere, and go rage.
Not to mention, you chuck it at a td trying to goof, you're wasting everyone's expensive track time.

Fair point. No title tho. Maybe a cart track?

[nhbubba]

Boxshop?

I can't find it now, but I swear I read that it was something they even taught at the NEMM school.

[Paul_E_D]

There's nothing to teach. Just enter faster, brake and downshift later, and you will have no choice. It is a RESULT of good technique, not a technique in itself in my experience.

[Ductard]

There's nothing to teach. Just enter faster, brake and downshift later, and you will have no choice. It is a RESULT of good technique, not a technique in itself in my experience.

To address some other concerns, guys don't worry that I'm going to run around at the next track day you're at and try to lock up the rear.

That said, it sounds like the body position is different to slide - more leaning the bike, less hanging off. Are you also further up (closer to the tank?). I brake pretty late compared to the sport bikes on the track, but most of it is done before I tip in - just a little trail braking.

I did some track days with PRS before getting the motard, but haven't gotten a lot of coaching on motard body-positioning or technique. I might try to check out some of those schools that Bubba mentioned.

[Paul_E_D]

Oh, well, I assumed you were a dirt type rider. Yes, forward on the tank, and until your name is Shane, you should use MX body position. Lean the bike underneath you, keeping your shoulders upright, butt moves to the OUTSIDE corner of the seat. Feet on pegs, or inside foot up near the front axle. Whatever feels good.

[Paul_E_D]

Oh, and you barely need to brake on a motard on most roadcourses. That's why it just ain't happening. This is generally a lower speed maneuver. Some nutters like Doug Henry can do it at roadrace speeds, but they are the exception.

[breakdirt916]

I also recommend kart tracks...socal has designated supermoto days so you'll see people backing it in all day around the turns at the ends of straights

the dr200 with stock dual sport tires at recommended pressure was surprisingly a bit tricky to get a clean slide...the back kept finding/losing traction and chattering...even negotiating it by getting on the tank, loading the front brake, and coming in pretty hot with a wee bit of rear brake at the right time to help shift weight forward. But then I rode someone else's with higher tire pressure and the rear tire turned into an ice skate...such a blast

[nt650hawk]

Tell me which one is faster? or does it matter?




http://www.lrrsracing.com/results/20...07806/Sun7.pdf

[nt650hawk]

T
I brake pretty late compared to the sport bikes on the track, but most of it is done before I tip in - just a little trail braking.

True with breaking later than say a Sport Bike. Sport bikes can enter the breaking area with more speed = needing more distance to brake that a trad and then add the weight of the bike alone = needing a bit more distance. I race against the motards and have a weith disadvantage of 100#. I was breaking earlier then them. I learned how to puch my markers deeper into the turn to just about match them if not take it further than some.

[Paul_E_D]

I had the privilege to race Doug a handful of times at Loudon. He was the only person I've ever seen sideways in just about every turn at Loudon, including the fastest T8. His MX style just required so much lean angle, that the thing would break loose going in and coming out of every turn.

He was tough to pass because he was really wide, and flinging molten aluminum/titanium back in every turn. T3 was the best place to pass him. Set up on the inside and wait for him to drift just past the tip in point, then put your bike on the line, which would essentially shut the door on him. Too much sliding makes you vulnerable to the inside pass.

[reks95]

Tell me which one is faster? or does it matter?

I'm fat, old, slow, and never raced so I don't know. But I was curious at one point and asked the internet.
The internet said really tight corners MX style and faster corners sport bike style.

[Pittenger5]

Just stab the rear brake, youll be sliding all over the place.

[Paul_E_D]

Just stab the rear brake, youll be sliding all over the place.

Please don't. You'll be highsiding all over the place too.

[SVRACER01]

Wirelessly posted (GS3)

Theres a thread on SMJ about sliding the rear by a pro.
Without a slipper you have to slip the clutch with the lever. With a slipper you can just dump it. A slight bit a rear brake is also recommended. He suggested trying it in a straight line first to get a feel. Then a parking lot and just make hairpin turns. The rear stepping out is initiated by the bars. 2 places I "practice" are pulling into work and sometimes my driveway.
every once in a while I pull into the local school parking lot and do laps arou d the light poles.
Hairpins are best to practice on since youve got to lean so much make the corner so the rear will come out more. Ive managed to back the 690 into 3 a few times at nhms but im by no means good or consistent at it.