Decreasing radius turn. What is your technique?

[TTD]

I am not up to speed on the latest MSF ERC curriculum so can't speak to that.

I have gotten excellent response from riders that do the ARC/Trackday combo. ARC on Monday followed by a trackday on Tuesday.

May 20,21 and June 17,18 are both available for this if you decide to go that route.

http://www.tonystrackdays.com/catego...ontrol-arc.htm

[jasnmar]

I'm far from an expert on these subjects, but I would recommend doing a track day before the ARC.

There's nothing wrong with doing the ARC first, but having done a track day first gives you more perspective on why you need to master the skills being taught.

Of course you should do a track day after as well, so you can apply your new skills.

I was very hesitant to "jump in" to track days, but really, it's just like a group ride in that you should ride to your ability, but in a controlled environment.

I've not done an E/BRC so have no opinion on how they might fit in.

[CBR929RE]

if you don't know the turn why are you going so fucking fast in the first place?

[Karate.Snoopy]

if you don't know the turn why are you going so fucking fast in the first place?

Now.. we're not perfect and world is not perfect, so if one does find themselves in a situation where a tighter radius surprises them with an 'oh shit' moment and the cranium computer suddenly comes to life, what actions should one take?

I did find some relevant material on this

The opposite situation is needing to tighten your cornering line while you're already at the lean angle limit that your confidence allows (note that for most but not all riders, this limit is below that of the maximum lean angle that either the cornering clearance of the chassis or the traction of the tires allow). Here is where the need for sublime smoothness on the controls is most needed. The degree of input while rolling out of the throttle to tighten your line is only a few percentage points of the quarter-turn available. Let's say, for the sake of argument, that neutral throttle is 17 percent of the total throttle opening. If you're nearing the physical limitations of the chassis, simply shutting the throttle completely could overwhelm the available traction by transferring more load to the front contact patch than the tire can handle. In this admittedly rare but critical instance you need to have the feel to relax the twist grip perhaps as little as two or three (or at most five to seven) percentage points of available throttle angle to tighten your cornering line. That slight reduction of throttle will transfer the bike's weight distribution forward, subtly compressing the fork and increasing the front tire's contact patch, both of which enhance the bike's ability to steer into the corner. These factors, in addition to the slight reduction of corner speed all combine to tighten your cornering line. Too much reduction in throttle, however, and the fork could compress to the point of compromising cornering clearance or overwhelming the available traction of the front tire.

thought it was worth sharing, do dissect

[CBR929RE]

that response was supposed to be part ball busting, guess I shoulda used a smiley. but really you should always ride at a pace where if something unexpected does come up you have plenty of leeway to handle it. always leave some skills in reserve. best advice for this situation really is as simple as keep looking through the turn and keep pushing the bar.

[Karate.Snoopy]

that response was supposed to be part ball busting, guess I shoulda used a smiley. but really you should always ride at a pace where if something unexpected does come up you have plenty of leeway to handle it. always leave some skills in reserve. best advice for this situation really is as simple as keep looking through the turn and keep pushing the bar.

I hear you ;-) I have gotten used to the ball busting since having moved here from ATL. Just wanted to be clear about my intent as well.

[jasnmar]

But really you should always ride at a pace where if something unexpected does come up you have plenty of leeway to handle it. always leave some skills in reserve. best advice for this situation really is as simple as keep looking through the turn and keep pushing the bar.

Not arguing, but there is only so much you can prepare for. I was recently on a ride where I was placed in a situation that I wasn't really comfortable with, but also had no opportunity to escape. I did reduce pace, but in some ways doing so also exposed me to additional risk, so I needed to weigh those risks against others.

I very much like the idea of keeping skills in reserve for this. I would simply add that one can't always evaluate how much to leave in reserve. On this particular trip I probably exceeded my skills a bit. Was that smart? No. Was there another choice? Based on my evaluation, not that I could find.

I hear you ;-) I have gotten used to the ball busting since having moved here from ATL. Just wanted to be clear about my intent as well.

Haha. Yea, the attitude is a bit different than southern hospitality. It's not bad. Just different.

[CBR929RE]

Not arguing, but there is only so much you can prepare for. I was recently on a ride where I was placed in a situation that I wasn't really comfortable with, but also had no opportunity to escape. I did reduce pace, but in some ways doing so also exposed me to additional risk, so I needed to weigh those risks against others.

I very much like the idea of keeping skills in reserve for this. I would simply add that one can't always evaluate how much to leave in reserve. On this particular trip I probably exceeded my skills a bit. Was that smart? No. Was there another choice? Based on my evaluation, not that I could find.



Haha. Yea, the attitude is a bit different than southern hospitality. It's not bad. Just different.

well of course there can be situations that just plain catch you off guard. but if there's ever a decreasing radius turn that tightens up so much that it would be a problem for anyone riding within their abilities than that's the fault of the idiot that laid the turn road out that way. I have yet to ever find a curve that tightens up too much too quickly.

[Garandman]

I'm far from an expert on these subjects, but I would recommend doing a track day before the ARC.

There's nothing wrong with doing the ARC first, but having done a track day first gives you more perspective on why you need to master the skills being taught.

Of course you should do a track day after as well, so you can apply your new skills.

I was very hesitant to "jump in" to track days, but really, it's just like a group ride in that you should ride to your ability, but in a controlled environment.

I've not done an E/BRC so have no opinion on how they might fit in.

Having gone to a track day first, I disagree. The first time I went to a track day I was intimidated by the speeds. All I could think was "I'll never use all this power!"

The Lee Parks ARC course is an excellent precursor.

[RandyO]

Just like turn 1 Loudon when you tried to do that thing.

He did

Always best to take a good healthy dump before a ride, that way you avoid leaving skid tracks

[breakdirt916]

grab clutch, mash rear brake, let the rear slide out into the berm, then mid-slide rev gas, pop clutch, weight outside peg, push down on the handlebars to the inside of the turn, and ride the berm to rail out of the corner



why would you want to ride street when you can do that on dirt without a recklessness ticket?

[stoinkythepig]

why would you want to ride street when you can do that on dirt without a recklessness ticket?

Because there are no trails that run between my house and my office.

[nhbubba]

Because-these days-finding a spot to legally off-road 'round here is like finding an underwear model in your bed.

[Rambunctous]

Loud pipes are the answer. Lay the bitch down.

[HanktheTank]

best advice for this situation really is as simple as keep looking through the turn and keep pushing the bar.

This.... I came into 3 a little too hot (for my novice self) and target fixated on the tires for a split second, I remember saying to myself that the bike can handle more lean than I could and to just keep pushing on the bars while I looked further through the turn.

[jasnmar]

Having gone to a track day first, I disagree. The first time I went to a track day I was intimidated by the speeds. All I could think was "I'll never use all this power!"

The Lee Parks ARC course is an excellent precursor.

Fair enough to have different perspectives and I understand yours (I think).

I agree. Speed on my first track day was, to say the least, intimidating. To tell a bit of a story on 'Bub's, I remember after our "follow the leader lap" him getting off the bike and saying "That was SLOW?" or something to that effect. I could only laugh, as I remembered the same exact thought on my first day.

For me, and others may be different, the primary problem with speed wasn't my technique (which certainly did and still does need plenty of work), but was the ability to process information at a very rapid pace (the information, not the rider or bike). An additional factor which I need to consider is that my first day was also in the rain, so speeds may have been more mild than on another day, which could certainly also impact my perspective on this.

From my perspective the ARC didn't really give me any practice in processing information. It did give me techniques to push an envelope that I had previously assumed to be largely limitations on my equipment (which are still there), as well as perform actions at speeds that were less close to the actual limitations.

Most of the exercises are relatively "low speed" and are very focused not requiring the same type of information processing that is required on the track. With that said, it does give you some tools to "observe" the information that you need at the time that you need it, so I can certainly understand your opinion. I'm not sure that "I" would have understood exactly how valuable this is without having experienced it previously.

Regardless of order we seem to very much agree that both track days and ARC are well worth the "spend".

[Karate.Snoopy]

Found something from Nick Ienatsch,

4) Radius equals MPH. Realize that speed affects the bike’s radius at a given lean angle. If the corner is tighter than expected, continue to bring your speed down. What’s the best way to bring your speed down? Roll off the throttle and hope you slow down? Or roll off the throttle and squeeze on a little brake? Please don’t answer off the top of your head…answer after you’ve experimented in the real world.
Do this: Ride in a circle in a parking lot at a given lean angle. That’s your radius. Run a circle or two and then slowly sneak on more throttle at the same lean angle and watch what your radius does. Now ride in the circle again, and roll off the throttle…at the same lean angle. You are learning Radius equals MPH. You are learning what throttle and off-throttle does to your radius through steering geometry changes and speed changes. You are learning something on your own, rather than asking for advice on subjects that affect your health and life. (You will also learn why I get so upset when new riders are told to push on the inside bar and pick up the throttle if they get in the corner too fast. Exactly the opposite of what the best riders do. But don’t believe me…try it.)
Let me rant for a moment: Almost every bit of riding advice works when the pace is low and the grip is high. It’s when the corner tightens or the sleet falls or the lap record is within reach…then everything counts.
“Get all your braking done before the turn,” is good riding advice. But what if you don’t? What if the corner goes the other way and is tighter and there’s gravel? It’s then that you don’t need advice, you need riding technique. Theory goes out the window and if you don’t perform the exact action, you will be lying in the dirt, or worse. Know that these techniques are not only understandable, but do-able by you. Yes you! I’m motivated to motivate you due to what I’ve seen working at Freddie’s school and now the Champ school…
I’m telling you this: If you can smoothly, gently pick-up your front brake lever and load the tire, you can brake at any lean angle on and FZ1. Why? Because our footpegs drag before our tires lose grip when things are warm and dry. It might be only 3 points, but missing the bus bumper by a foot is still missing the bumper! If it’s raining, you simply take these same actions and reduce them…you can still mix lean angle and brake pressure, but with considerably less of each. Rainy and cold? Lower still, but still combine-able.

[Paul_E_D]

There are more than one answer to this. In some cases, a little more press will work, others picking up the throttle will help (despite what Nick just said, throttle DOES help a bike change directions), still other cases require rolling off, or even applying the brakes. THIS is why it is an advanced skill. Nicks advice is generally sound though. practice it.

[CBR929RE]

Found something from Nick Ienatsch,

yes if you have the skills and can do it without panicking then a little brake is good. if you ever get to the track, the decreasing radius part of the long sweeper at Thunderbolt (NJMP) is a good place to practice this.

[nhbubba]

I agree. Speed on my first track day was, to say the least, intimidating. To tell a bit of a story on 'Bub's, I remember after our "follow the leader lap" him getting off the bike and saying "That was SLOW?" or something to that effect. I could only laugh, as I remembered the same exact thought on my first day.

Yep. I said that. Whut a fuggin' rush!

Straying OT, but I think I agree with Jason. I haven't done the ARC. My plan is to sign up this year. My experience was that the first day was overload, overload, overload. I walked the track the night before (I strongly recommend this, BTW). But I still didn't know "T3" from a hole in the wall. Everything from where do I start braking to where the hell is the bathroom was on my mind.

Graham kept giving us visual markers:
"Look for the tires exiting T3 through T4"
"Uh? T3.. that's somewhere over there, right? There are tires? Where?!? Didn't see those."

One of the biggest let downs of the track day was that I did not learn as many new/improved skills as I had hopped. ~$225 and a day of vacation time is real money to me. I was dead set on maximizing my return. Unfortunately I just don't think that is possible, in reality. Not on day 1. Too many new situations.

Now I am excited about learning/improving skills and then considering applying them in an environment that is not completely foreign to me. At one point the idea that the ARC cost that much and was held in a dirty old parking lot seemed like a rip. Now I am thinking that's a pro; I know dirty old parking lots. They are familiar environments. Learning skills at that pace AND trying to learn the track simultaneously would be bad. YMMV.


All that said, if you just finished the BRC and got your first sport bike. A TTD should probably not be on your immediate radar. Hats off to those that can transition and learn that quickly. But I ain't like that.


The bottom, bottom line here is that you are not going to learn how to handle these situations on an interwebz forum. No way.

[jwm2k3]

A bunch of helpful responses in here Im sure...(didnt bother reading them all)

The most important thing to do when you realize too hot in for the corner......FORCE yourself to look 50 yards ahead into the turn. What happens next is magic. The bike will go where you look...amazing.

[Jason P.]

I ask my friends, whom have been riding for years longer than i have and have a that much same in trackday exp, what to do when a turn tightens up.

'GIVE IT GAS. LEAN MORE. LOOK THROUGH THE TURN'

it seems crazy to me at first, giving it MORE gas when the turn tightens up. but it works. just NEED to get over that fear of more gas.

although this bit me in Jersey at the decreasing radius 8. i leaned too much with giving it adequate gas for lean angle and the front washed out.

[TTD]

Leaning more and giving more gas only works when you are not already at/near the limit. Granted, on the street you should not be near the limit so this method should work.

Also, on the track most people that are not at the front of the fast group also have some in reserve (even if they don't know it), so this method often works at the track too.

However, when you are in too hot - knowing how to apply some brake - and/or let off the gas - is also a tool to have in your bag.

[Chippertheripper]

The concept of more gas, while counter intuitive at first, doesn't equate to pinning it either. Smooth, mutherfucker, smooth.

[Paul_E_D]

It's really the act of cracking the throttle the moment you reach your max lean angle that takes a little weight off the heavily loaded front tire, and allows it to track into the corner better. If you have already blown it and run wide, then this will only push you wider. That is when one finger on the brake can help tighten a line.

Practice both so you can use the correct one for your situation.