G/F failed MSF course! WTF?

[brendanp]

So Marlen took the course at cycles 128. She scored a 96 on the written. When it came to the riding, they gave her a kawi eliminator 250. The fucken thing had fwd. controls, a clutch that was stiffer than my dick, the bike kept dying on her and not going into 1st gear! She is short, so this is the only bike they had! Her hand and arm were killing her cause the clutch line was soo stiff!
She did everything right, except for when they tested her on stopping, she stopped like 2 ft. before the cones. And that is what failed her! WTF?
I mean come on! FWD controls, and she is 5 ft 2? WTF is that? She hadda sit on the tank to reach them!

They never went over hand signals, (ya in the book, but that's it) never showed or practiced doing right and left circles!

So now she has to go take it thru the registry where you do have to show hand signals, and you do have to do circles both ways!
And I get stuck teaching her.

BTW, she has a real bike. A 06 gixx 600 that is being lowered for her. Not some piece of shit bike...

OK, I'm done! Now discuss

[OreoGaborio]

2ft over on the emergency stop alone won't fail you.... there's no doubt she got points off elsewhere on the practical.

Regarding circles both ways, that's what the U-turn box covers... two consecutive u-turns (that are more than 180 degrees), one in each direction within a 20' wide, by 60'(?) long box.

As for the bike, she shoulda pressed them more for a different one.

I think the main problem was she took it at Cycles 128 instead of with me at North Andover

[MissTwisties]

So she failed on a smaller cc and will get on the streets with a 600? What do you define as a "piece of shit" bike and a "real" bike? Just curious...

Hand signals I don't think are a requisite to practice during field sessions. As long as you learn them from the book...most people will never use them on the streets afterwards. I've rarely seen anyone using them out there on the roads.

If the bike they gave her had some real issues, did she mention it to the instructors or she kept quiet? Also you say she did everything right except for the stop, it doesn't seem right that she would fail a class just for ONE mistake...and as Pete said, the practice for circles is the U-turn box.

I think she could retake the class for a small fee but I'm not 100% on that. And hopefully she won't get hurt on that 600..specially when you say the bike she learned on was too big for her...

[DucDave]

And I get stuck teaching her.

BTW, she has a real bike. A 06 gixx 600 that is being lowered for her. Not some piece of shit bike...

So..you get stuck teaching her?

Would you sign off on her licence right now if you were in a position to do so?

I think one of the most courageous things I know of that people do are when MSF instructors like Pete, and a host of others on this site, sign off on someones competency. That's a heavy freekin' burden man.

I don't have a horse in this race and there is nothing in this thread that actually tells me whether she's competent enough to ride on the street. But I'm pretty sure they didn't fail her just to be dicks....

[brendanp]

A real bike as in having you feet placed over the bike instead of foward of the bike. A clutch that actually pulls nice, and one that dont have problems going into gear and dying. She did not go past the cones at the stop. She stopped a bit before them. She is NOT going to lie to me. That is what they failed her on. period!

She came home yesterday and drove me on the back of my 750 around th block many times and did a great job. No problem stopping. And as far as hand signals go, my cuz just took the test over at the Peabody street department last week on my bike and they failed some guy cause he used his right hand to show his hand signals, so it does matter!

Pete, I had no idea that you did this course. Ooh, and the girl that was one of the instructors, was one of those "hot shots" that hadda try to impress all the students when she was showing them how to do some of the configurations.

[Degsy]

Sounds weird.

The are no cones in the stopping test.

Also, exercise 10 and 17 AND the evalutaion test all have a double u turn which is left and right circles.

Contact the school, be polite and tell them that you are a long-time motorcyclist and you think that there are some factors that may have had an influence on her test resulting in a failure to meet the standards. They should be able to either:

a: Get a report from the coach who administered the test.
b: Arrange a re-test on a different bike for a small fee.

Please understand a couple of things. I'm not saying this accusing anyone of anything and you might well have VERY legitimate concerns that should be addresses, nobody if perfect. Please please please take this as constructive input, not me siding with the MSF and blaming your girlfriend.

As coaches, we have to deal with a very broad spectrum of people. The diversity amongst students is amazing. It can be difficult to get along with everyone and sometimes this can lead to a tough learning environment in which the student can feel like they are being 'picked on' or are not getting the very best coaching. I taught a class last Friday on the range and I think I went just a tiny bit over the line while coaching an older lady (I didn't shout at her or anything, LOL. I just gave her too much inout at once and overwhelmed her a little) and I think I upset her a little (temporarily only, she passed and we got along just fine) but sometimes these things happen.

We would like every student to pass, BUT the range evaluation is pretty much impossible for the coach to screw with the numbers as far as pass/fail is concerned. There is a maximum score and you must beat it to pass. If you accrue too many points, you fail to meet the criteria for passing.

I don't 'help' anyone out at all as far as getting them through the test. They are on their own come evaluation time. We MUST stand back and let the student pass/fail on their own or the test is not valid. We are responsible for sending people out onto the road with the expectation that they are safe. If they don't pass the evaluation, they don't have the BASIC skills to be on the road on their own, and every coach is going to defend their decision to the hilt. I do not want to hear that one of my students who I 'helped' pass the test got killed on the road because their skills were lacking.

Every person I have ever had to fail has agreed with me that they are not ready. Everyone from big tough guys who have been riding for a while to petite little women who are nervous as all hell during the test.

Now, on the bike front. Did she complain DURING the class that the bike was a problem? Yes, the eliminators do have more forward controls than the Nighthawks, but everyone who has ridden both will tell you that the eliminators are far far easier to do the evaluations on. There are 10 hours of range classes which really should be enough time to get used to the bike OR to make a complaint about the bike and get on another one.

Having said all that. She may have genuine grievances and I think that most MSF schools will bend over backwards to accommodate her should she want a re-test on a different bike (for a small fee, like $25).

Brendan, feel free to PM me to discuss or we can chat by phone. I will also help out with some coaching if you want to arrange a time.

Just remember, her pride may be hurt, but an extra couple of weeks of not riding at night or carrying a passenger or going out of state will not hurt her in the long run and might give her time to practice a little and improve her skills enough to sail through the test.



derek

[kb1]

I don't know if they failed her to be dicks, but sometimes people do struggle with the bikes and it goes unnoticed. I did my course with the Central MA Saftey Council and they were VERY hands on with the riders that struggled a bit. Specifically taking them to the side, and working with them specificially on the issues they were having. The classes only have 7 or 8 people per instructor as well, very one on one.

I don't know what goes on in the classes she took, but I do know that every instructor I have met and spoke with LOVES adding new safe riders to the road. There must have been a very strong, overwhelming reason they didn't pass her and I would be thankful that they didn't let her on the road just yet.

I would personally think long and hard before letting her rider a 600, most cases it's not the bike, it's the rider.

["Dangerous" Dan K]

I took the MSF @ Cycles 128. I saw people make tons of mistakes, include blowing the stop. One thing that got me was in turns, the outside lines was supposed to represent a different traffic lane occupied by a semi. People crossed that line, "hit the truck", "died" and still passed. Nobody in the class with me failed, I think it works on a point system and you need to mess up various spots in order to fail?

Anyway, I agree the best move here is go take it with Gaborio in NA. If she didn't pass the MSF, I think she's going to have a very hard time passing @ the RMV. I have a buddy that took the RMV test in NH, only bike available to him was a full dresser harley. The cop told him flat out: "I don't think that bike can turn tight enough to do the figure 8, and if you can't do that I can't pass you, you might want to come back with another bike". He got it done, but had to drag both sides of the bike to do it.

I say best bet is send her to Oreo. If that's out for some reason, practice at the DMV test lot when they are not open, so she's used to the sized boxes she'll need to figure 8 in and whatnot. I don't know about MA, but in NH I see people practicing @ the DMV in Dover on Sundays somewhat often.

edit: A bunch of people replied saying the same stuff I was thinking while I went back and forth between typing a reply and doing my job. I didn't mean to pile on, feel free to disregard this post.

[Degsy]

The classes only have 7 or 8 people per instructor as well, very one on one.

MAXIMUM 6 riders per coach.

[jwm2k3]

Although the bikes are constantly dropped, mis-used and tossed on the pavement by first timers they are only used in the school for a few years and are always maintained in the service dept. Having said that I will concede that the are not in the most perfect mechanical shape. Im sure some are hard to find neutral in, Im sure clutches get stiff...

I would have asked for another bike, they have plenty. Especailly if, like you say, she had to sit on the tank. Most of the bikes are Nighthawk 250's. The Nighthawk has a higher seat then the Kawasaki Eliminator. May have been a better choice then the Nighthwak based on how tall she is. By the way.....the Eliminator is a 125, not a 250.

She can take what the school calls 'private lessons' and get the instructor to sign off on the card. Believe me, you want that card for insurance discounts!

[kb1]

MAXIMUM 6 riders per coach.

Took it over a year ago so I couldn't remember exactly how many, but my point exactly, it's very one on one...

[Degsy]

I think one of the most courageous things I know of that people do are when MSF instructors like Pete, and a host of others on this site, sign off on someones competency. That's a heavy freekin' burden man.

I have HAD to pass people because they met the minimum standards and I hoped they would not because they didn't seem ready to me. I hand them their pass card and have a quiet chat about how they NEED to practice more before going out on the road even though they passed. They usually know that they 'lucked out in the test' and agree to practice more before riding on their own. I have gone home and thought all night about someone who I knew would be out riding without the skills or maturity they need but because they met the criteria I had to pass them.

derek

[Degsy]

Agreed. but Neutral is not used after exercise 3. Neutral is not something that is required for passing the class.

I don't think someone of 5'2" is going to fit on a nighthawk and be able to do the double u-turns. The suzuki gs125 is always an option in some schools too. Small but not with forward controls.

derek

Although the bikes are constantly dropped, mis-used and tossed on the pavement by first timers they are only used in the school for a few years and are always maintained in the service dept. Having said that I will concede that the are not in the most perfect mechanical shape. Im sure some are hard to find neutral in, Im sure clutches get stiff...

I would have asked for another bike, they have plenty. Especailly if, like you say, she had to sit on the tank. Most of the bikes are Nighthawk 250's. The Nighthawk has a higher seat then the Kawasaki Eliminator. May have been a better choice then the Kawi based on how tall she is. By the way.....the Eliminator is a 125, not a 250.

She can take what the school calls 'private lessons' and get the instructor to sign off on the card. Believe me, you want that card for insurance discounts!

[brendanp]

It was the only bike they had. She did complain about it and they knew it was a POS. Hey, I'm not looking to make excuses for her at all. I wouldn't want to pass her either if she really couldn't do it.
But I think had she had a better bike to work with, she would have passed.

She will not let me go there and fight her battles. She is a very stubborn costa rican girl. I honestly dont think she has anything to hide with me. They told her she faild for the stopping part cause she stopped short of the mark.
I'm not sure how much it costs to go back and do it again, but she wont do it.
And Degsy, I totally respect what you say man. Maybe she can get with Pete when she gets her bike back. I want her to be safe and very comfortable riding her bike. I dont need her to fuck up and get hurt, so maybe this is a blessing for her to maybe get some instructions from you guys. I know that it will be the best for her. Honestly, as you prolly know, it is always hard for a mate to try to teach someone...

[OreoGaborio]

Brendan.... I'm tellin you, simply failing the emergency stop will not fail someone on the entire evaluation. That's the way the eval is designed.

Degsy really couldn't have said it bette, his posts in this thread are definitely worth re-reading and sharing with your girl. If she won't take his advice then the only person she can blame is herself.

[kb1]

]Honestly, as you prolly know, it is always hard for a mate to try to teach someone...

Exactly, never easy to tell the other half or try to teach. But it is definitely in your best interest to get her further instruction and stress to her the importance of fully understanding and being capable of bike control. Because as well all know, when you're on the road, that type of stuff has to be automatic.

Too many scary situations that happen when you CAN have control of your bike, nevermind when you don't!

[Degsy]

It was the only bike they had. She did complain about it and they knew it was a POS. Hey, I'm not looking to make excuses for her at all. I wouldn't want to pass her either if she really couldn't do it.
But I think had she had a better bike to work with, she would have passed.

She will not let me go there and fight her battles. She is a very stubborn costa rican girl. I honestly dont think she has anything to hide with me. They told her she faild for the stopping part cause she stopped short of the mark.
I'm not sure how much it costs to go back and do it again, but she wont do it.
And Degsy, I totally respect what you say man. Maybe she can get with Pete when she gets her bike back. I want her to be safe and very comfortable riding her bike. I dont need her to fuck up and get hurt, so maybe this is a blessing for her to maybe get some instructions from you guys. I know that it will be the best for her. Honestly, as you prolly know, it is always hard for a mate to try to teach someone...

Glad you didn't take my words badly.

She is entitled to a properly operating motorcycle.

Does she have a couple of thousand miles of experience on the roads on her bike? Is she able to handle that bike well as far as weaves and tight circles are concerned? if so, she MIGHT be able to take a free class in Bourne this weekend coming, It is a one-day class on saturday or Sunday BUT it is an ERC and she would have to use her own bike. The ERC has tougher standards than the BRC. She would have to meet age/experience criteria also. Call training wheels www.trainingwheelsonline.com to ask if she would be eligible. I'm also teaching a free sportbike erc in Seekonk the following weekend for www.ironstoneventures.com so you could try them also.

BTW if she stopped BEFORE the cones (twice) in the braking then she stopped before you are even supposed to be STARTING to brake. That is cause for her to fail the entire braking part of the evaluation which would put her close to failing if she also lost points on other parts of the text (putting a foot down in the u turns or going over the lines etc)

derek

[brendanp]

They told her straight out that she failed on the braking, because she stopped before the cones. They told her they dont know if she did not understand what they asked her to do, but she can take the test over again. That's it.

She does not have her bike back yet. My good friend john is lowering it for her, and we are having a problem lowering the front on the 600. Apparently, the tubes change in diameter, and you can only slip them up like 3/4"
So going to any couse soon is out of the picture right now.

Thanks for the replies. I dont take any of them to heart. I want her safe. That's it period!

[Degsy]

They told her straight out that she failed on the braking, because she stopped before the cones. They told her they dont know if she did not understand what they asked her to do, but she can take the test over again. That's it.

OK. You cannot fail on just the braking though, unless you drop the bike or perform an intentional unsafe act.

That braking exercise is also done a couple of times during the class so she had seen it/done it before a few times. She would also have seen some of the other students do the braking test right in front of her before she did it. Something just doesn't sound right.

I would agree that you should not fight her battles for her though. Not very respectful to call the class 'on her behalf'.

There might be someone here from cycles 128 msf class who can chime in???

[flipper704]

I am only 5'1 and I took the class last July in North Andover. I was riding one of their suzuki's and found it to be ok for height. I would recommend that North Andover location. I lost a point for going over the line in the figure 8 but they didnt fail me for that.

[DucDave]

You haven't answered this question:

Would you sign off on her licence right now if you were in a position to do so?

Honestly. Would you?

[McBiggity]

what I think he means by stopping before the cones is that she anticipated the stop. And if she did that on the re-try, then there is 10 points right there.

[Degsy]

what I think he means by stopping before the cones is that she anticipated the stop. And if she did that on the re-try, then there is 10 points right there.

Yeah, that's how I read it. I didn't want to publicize the points structure though.

[Priv]

I am only 5'1 and I took the class last July in North Andover. I was riding one of their suzuki's and found it to be ok for height. I would recommend that North Andover location. I lost a point for going over the line in the figure 8 but they didnt fail me for that.

I also took the course in North Andover, unfortunately didn't get Pete for an instructor
I used the suzuki 125 and I'm 5'3, and lemme tell ya, it was a shitbox. Regardless of that, in taking the test I went outside the lines on the u-turn box, and had to repeat one exercise, and still passed it. Not sure how 128 runs their show, but I'd recommend the N.A. location 100%.

[seth399]

ha, sucky...this sounds like when I went to get my motorcycle license and the state cop told me I was all set after the test and handed me the paper that said failed. When asking him politely what I did wrong he told me I could be taken into jail if I kept questioning him.