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Hawks in current advertisement

  1. #26
    Lifer JohnnyV's Avatar
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    Wirelessly posted (Blackberry Bold 9930)

    Quote Originally Posted by xxaarraa
    Quote Originally Posted by a13x View Post
    SSSA's aren't the hot ticket for racing. That's why the 999 went to dual. Lighter and better for racing applications. Only reason 1098 went back to SSSA was because the 999 didn't sell and all the coffee drinkers freaked out. Yea SSSA makes changing your rear wheel 'easier' for the average joe in their garage but a pro race team has a rear wheel off a traditional swingarm bike in seconds flat. Also gearing changes are a nightmare with SSSA due to the isometric hub.

    Hawks due rule though. Not many 1988 production bikes you can roll up to any bike night, race track, gp parking lot and have people walk by and start talking about your bike.
    Regardless of how many seconds a race team needs to take the wheel off a dual swingarm bike, taking the same wheel off an SSS is faster. And in racing, even miliseconds are worth big big money. Also, a race-prepped bike will have a quick change sprocket carrier, so your point about gearing changes being harder on SSS is not necessarily true.

    999 didn't sell because of many reasons. The swingarm isn't one of them.

    No offense meant, just pointing out is all.
    Without trying to brown-nose or tout Alex as being the end-all-be-all knowledgebase of modern racing, I think you will be hard pressed to win an argument regarding what's "in" or what application would suit a race team better (a13x works for Monster's motorsports division, and formerly Ducati North America). I'm just sayin'...

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  2. #27
    Development Rider scottieducati's Avatar
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    Re: Hawks in current advertisement

    Hawk was a cheap knock off of a proper race bike, one with a V4 in it

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    CCS/LRRS #83

  3. #28
    Just Registered Doc's Avatar
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    Re: Hawks in current advertisement

    Quote Originally Posted by JohnnyV View Post
    Wirelessly posted (Blackberry Bold 9930)



    Without trying to brown-nose or tout Alex as being the end-all-be-all knowledgebase of modern racing, I think you will be hard pressed to win an argument regarding what's "in" or what application would suit a race team better (a13x works for Monster's motorsports division, and formerly Ducati North America). I'm just sayin'...
    Don't forget the National Guard/ Jordan Motorsports team and he is personal friends with Josh Hayes... Name dropper...

    Love ya Alex!

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    "I'd rather ride a slow bike fast than a fast bike slow"
    Bikes: Ducati: 748 (Track) Honda: RC31 (Race/street)/ CRF 110 Mini Moto/ Hawk Endurance Racer Kawasaki: ZXR1200R
    BOMO Instructor
    EX# X

  4. #29
    Lifer a13x's Avatar
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    Re: Hawks in current advertisement

    Based on my experiences, this is what I've learned about SSSA's:

    DUCATI
    Let's talk about Ducati a bit, as they are pretty much the main proponents of the SSSA both from a racing success standpoint and they still sell bikes that come OEM with SSSA.

    The 999 went to a dual swingarm because it was a better design for race track performance. This was after extensive testing by the race team and test riders. Ducati knew it was moving away from the iconic SSSA that made the 916 a legend but trusted Pierre (looks) and trusted that Ducati owners would respect a bike that was a better on-track performer. As we now all know... that failed completely. While the 999 was a 'better motorcycle' than the 916/996/998 the top reason for not buying the 999, based on consumer feedback, was the "look", which mainly centered around the stacked headlights and non SSSA. So the 1098 was back to 916esque styling and a SSSA.... Notice the Panigale abandoned the undertail exhaust and has a underbelly style exhaust now? That's because undertail exhausts are less than ideal from a performance standpoint, COG is too high. They kept the SSSA though, which IMO is based on the 999 debacle and not wanting to make too many changes at once to their flagship Superbike. I wouldn't be surprised if the SSSA is retired in another generation or two of the Superbike. After all, the Ducati pinnacle of racing performance, their MotoGP bike, has a V4 engine, aluminum frame, and dual swing arm.

    QUICK TIRE CHANGES
    The only racing where tire changes are needed, and timing is everything, is endurance racing. In the vast majority of motorcycle racing, quick tire changes aren't necessarily. Even when they are needed, like at the Daytona 200, the Graves Yamaha team can have both wheels changed and a full tank of fuel loaded in less than 20 seconds. That includes the rider getting on and off the bike! From watching Ducati 848 teams (SSSA) at the Daytona 200, they did not have a clear time advantage, oft times overall slower. Even if the SSSA is a fraction quicker for a rear wheel change, the net gain across the full race spectrum doesn't make it a viable option.

    GEARING
    Gearing comment is from comments by professional racers, mechanics, and engineers 'bitch' about SSSA's and how they make gearing a nightmare. The main take-away I've gathered is your gearing options / setup options are limited compared to a traditional dual setup. Obviously many racers have had major success with SSSA's (WSBK, AMA, etc), so it can work, it just tends to be more of a pain in the ass apparently. Hell I even raced a Hawk at Loudon for 2 years



    One hard rule about racing, if something has a clear advantage, everyone does it. If SSSA's were better for racing, you'd seem them all over the motorcycle racing world. As it is.. you do not, because they really don't have clear advantages over traditional swinging arms over a number of areas. The areas that have been outlined to me include: weight (SSSA's tend to be heavier), stiffness (or lack there of), lack of adjustability (swingarm angle, gearing).


    Again, this is my personal experiences and things I've learned. Could be all wrong, could be complete opposite of someone else's experiences are. This is just my understanding of the topic, which is subject to change as life continues and more data is collected.

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  5. #30
    xxaarraa
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    Re: Hawks in current advertisement

    Quote Originally Posted by a13x View Post
    Based on my experiences, this is what I've learned about SSSA's:

    DUCATI
    Let's talk about Ducati a bit, as they are pretty much the main proponents of the SSSA both from a racing success standpoint and they still sell bikes that come OEM with SSSA.

    The 999 went to a dual swingarm because it was a better design for race track performance. This was after extensive testing by the race team and test riders. Ducati knew it was moving away from the iconic SSSA that made the 916 a legend but trusted Pierre (looks) and trusted that Ducati owners would respect a bike that was a better on-track performer. As we now all know... that failed completely. While the 999 was a 'better motorcycle' than the 916/996/998 the top reason for not buying the 999, based on consumer feedback, was the "look", which mainly centered around the stacked headlights and non SSSA. So the 1098 was back to 916esque styling and a SSSA.... Notice the Panigale abandoned the undertail exhaust and has a underbelly style exhaust now? That's because undertail exhausts are less than ideal from a performance standpoint, COG is too high. They kept the SSSA though, which IMO is based on the 999 debacle and not wanting to make too many changes at once to their flagship Superbike. I wouldn't be surprised if the SSSA is retired in another generation or two of the Superbike. After all, the Ducati pinnacle of racing performance, their MotoGP bike, has a V4 engine, aluminum frame, and dual swing arm.

    QUICK TIRE CHANGES
    The only racing where tire changes are needed, and timing is everything, is endurance racing. In the vast majority of motorcycle racing, quick tire changes aren't necessarily. Even when they are needed, like at the Daytona 200, the Graves Yamaha team can have both wheels changed and a full tank of fuel loaded in less than 20 seconds. That includes the rider getting on and off the bike! From watching Ducati 848 teams (SSSA) at the Daytona 200, they did not have a clear time advantage, oft times overall slower. Even if the SSSA is a fraction quicker for a rear wheel change, the net gain across the full race spectrum doesn't make it a viable option.

    GEARING
    Gearing comment is from comments by professional racers, mechanics, and engineers 'bitch' about SSSA's and how they make gearing a nightmare. The main take-away I've gathered is your gearing options / setup options are limited compared to a traditional dual setup. Obviously many racers have had major success with SSSA's (WSBK, AMA, etc), so it can work, it just tends to be more of a pain in the ass apparently. Hell I even raced a Hawk at Loudon for 2 years



    One hard rule about racing, if something has a clear advantage, everyone does it. If SSSA's were better for racing, you'd seem them all over the motorcycle racing world. As it is.. you do not, because they really don't have clear advantages over traditional swinging arms over a number of areas. The areas that have been outlined to me include: weight (SSSA's tend to be heavier), stiffness (or lack there of), lack of adjustability (swingarm angle, gearing).


    Again, this is my personal experiences and things I've learned. Could be all wrong, could be complete opposite of someone else's experiences are. This is just my understanding of the topic, which is subject to change as life continues and more data is collected.
    Thanks for a well articulated, objective response. So used to people on the intertube launching into a keyboard war, but your post gives me more topics to research which is great.

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  6. #31
    Lifer a13x's Avatar
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    Re: Hawks in current advertisement

    Quote Originally Posted by JohnnyV View Post
    Wirelessly posted (Blackberry Bold 9930)
    or tout Alex as being the end-all-be-all knowledgebase of modern racing, .
    hahah thx JV.

    To be very very clear. I'm by no means close to a 'end-all-be-all' on modern racing. Especially when it comes to the technical side of the sport... bit of a motorcycle technical luddite honestly.. but I do listen very closely to what people who are EABA (end all be all haha) say, and try to expand my understanding of motorcycle magic. I love lurking on rider/crew chief debriefs and when crews aren't busy I ask lots of questions.

    When it comes to motorcycle racing / the motorcycle industry on the marketing, branding, team running, rider selection, politics of the sport, anything that doesn't involve a wrench... Well that I'll go toe to toe with anyone in the industry on

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    Last edited by a13x; 10-31-12 at 01:33 PM.

  7. #32
    Lifer a13x's Avatar
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    Re: Hawks in current advertisement

    Quote Originally Posted by xxaarraa View Post
    Thanks for a well articulated, objective response. So used to people on the intertube launching into a keyboard war, but your post gives me more topics to research which is great.
    Thanks. Same to you.

    Had my fair share of keyboard interwebbe warz and personally I'm very tired of them. My original short reply, and your response, actually made me think about the topic though and it was interesting to try to put all these weird tendrils of thought into one fairly concise post.

    Undoubtedly now...Honda will release a new MotoGP bike based on a SSSA tomorrow.

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