Lean/cornering technique

[selltekk]

Ok,

I do my best to ride well within my meager abilities. However as I gain experience, I try different things to see how it changes the feel of cornering and such. I suppose that this is the way that everyone experiments until they get to the point where it feels good.

Anyway, my question is, when in a turn, it seems to me that if I shift my upperbody a bit towards the inside mirror, the turn goes alot smoother and the bike turns faster without the need for so much lean to stay stable. Is this the beginnings of getting off the seat towards the inside of the bike, or am I doing it wholly wrong and this will get me into trouble eventually?

I assume that getting my ass off the seat towards the inside of the bike will produce the same results, but should I be moving my upper body in that direction first, or should I move off the seat first?

[Pittenger5]

Throw your inside shoulder toward your mirror, your body and ass should both go in that direction.

[TTD]

Yep... sounds like you're heading in the right direction.

(get it? right direction... heading... I crack myself up)


Seriously, folks...

If you're only going to do one, then I would say leaning the upperbody into the corner is the first step.

You will come to realize, however, that if you shift your inside butt cheek off just BEFORE you start cornering... that it becomes quite natural for your upper body to then follow... right after you countersteer.

If only there was a place to continually practice this stuff???

[Pittenger5]

I got into a bad habit at the beginning of throwing my ass of the seat, but leaving my head about dead center on the bike. It FELT like I was hanging off, but obviously wasnt. It took a lot of work to break that habit, so its something to keep in mind.

[kermita]

Something I learned at Cornerspeed School...your head and your knee should be pointing in the direction you want to go. I had never heard that your knee pointing where you want to go also helps you to get in the right position for a turn.

[TTD]

I actually don't move my head too much.

I move my butt and shoulders, but my head stays pretty centered. I'm sort of working to break the habit, but not too hard. Compared to my body weight, the head is not affecting things too much... and it allows me to keep my balance better.

Not saying it's right... but it works for me. When I drop my head, I don't feel as "in touch" with the back tire when it breaks loose.

http://www.tonystrackdays.com/custom..._Action_TZ.jpg

Here's a vid of me. Regardless of the head, you want to strive for smooth body movements. I often see people "hop" off the seat just before the corner, upsetting the suspension. Try to preset your body and then when you countersteer, your body will just sort of "fall" into position.

Laps with Tony

[Doc]

I got into a bad habit at the beginning of throwing my ass of the seat, but leaving my head about dead center on the bike. It FELT like I was hanging off, but obviously wasnt. It took a lot of work to break that habit, so its something to keep in mind.

Ditto!

[SVRACER01]

dont ask me... i dont know what im doing either

[Doc]

dont ask me... i dont know what im doing either

Why did I ever listen to you!!!

[SVRACER01]

IMO.... this pic is a good example of proper body position,its T9 at NHIS. even on the street, i drop a shoulder. your right. the more your upper body and head is off the bike the less you have to lean. there does come a point where you might feel "disconnected" from the bike and not have as much control as you think. i hang waaaay off in T7 even though i probably shouldnt but its what works for me.

[OreoGaborio]

Yep... sounds like you're heading in the right direction.

(get it? right direction... heading... I crack myself up)


Seriously, folks...

If you're only going to do one, then I would say leaning the upperbody into the corner is the first step.

You will come to realize, however, that if you shift your inside butt cheek off just BEFORE you start cornering... that it becomes quite natural for your upper body to then follow... right after you countersteer.

If only there was a place to continually practice this stuff???

Well said, Tony.... There's a reason you run the show.

(Anyone got a napkin? I've got some crap on my nose.)


Seriously though, when I'm riding on the street at a pace that doesn't really require changing my body position, i'll still point through the turn w/ my shoulder & chin & lean my upper body into the turn.

[Ken C]

You are correct to position your head and shoulders inside, eb=ven if you don't move your butt.

One technique I have written about (and confirmed to work by Tony) is to rock your hips so you weight the inside butt cheek. You'll notice that your head and shoulders will naturally move to the inside.

[selltekk]

Seriously though, when I'm riding on the street at a pace that doesn't really require changing my body position, i'll still point through the turn w/ my shoulder & chin & lean my upper body into the turn.

Right. I'm not riding fast enough to require a change in body position, nor do I feel the need to ride that fast on the street, but The turns do feel alot better by moving towards the inside of the bike.

Thanks to everyone for the input!

Now if I can just get a cheap track bike...

[Doc]

EX500 baby!!! Pete has one for CHEAP!

[Pittenger5]

Id better find a way to bump soon so I can show Pete how its done first, or something like that.

[selltekk]

How much?

[Doc]

I think he wanted like $1500... plus my 5% finders fee...

[OreoGaborio]

Close, but not quite that much... More like 1250. I'm not in any rush right now. VIR made me fall in love with that pile of shit all over again.... There's just something about riding an EX500 & passing a guy on a 1098 around the outside... TWICE... on the same lap... at either end of the front straight (he was REALLY, really slow By the time I got to the bridge before turn 7 he was no where to be found.)

[Pittenger5]

Next time I rock VIR Im bringing the EX.

[taxonomy]

Amazon.com: Total Control: High Performance Street Riding Techniques: Lee Parks: Books Buy this book. It's really great. Better than Twist of the Wrist for road riders. Clear and easy to understand. My girlfriend was even reading it because....

wait...

She found it interesting.

Get ye to the Experienced Rider Course from the MSF. If you join the Honda Riders Club (no need to have a Honda) they give you $75 off training with the $20 membership (plus other AAA type benefits) the training winds up costing you $80.

You will learn a lot in a day, all useful stuff. You can use it to go fast, be safe or both. Your choice. Better than a message board for learning.

A

[Kham]

I got into a bad habit at the beginning of throwing my ass of the seat, but leaving my head about dead center on the bike. It FELT like I was hanging off, but obviously wasnt. It took a lot of work to break that habit, so its something to keep in mind.

besides "felt like", it also looks gay.

[Kham]

IMO.... this pic is a good example of proper body position,its T9 at NHIS. even on the street, i drop a shoulder. your right. the more your upper body and head is off the bike the less you have to lean. there does come a point where you might feel "disconnected" from the bike and not have as much control as you think. i hang waaaay off in T7 even though i probably shouldnt but its what works for me.

that's perfect right there. love the pic.

you need to be in position before you turn, isn't that right?

[selltekk]

Amazon.com: Total Control: High Performance Street Riding Techniques: Lee Parks: Books Buy this book. It's really great. Better than Twist of the Wrist for road riders. Clear and easy to understand. My girlfriend was even reading it because....

wait...

She found it interesting.

Get ye to the Experienced Rider Course from the MSF. If you join the Honda Riders Club (no need to have a Honda) they give you $75 off training with the $20 membership (plus other AAA type benefits) the training winds up costing you $80.

You will learn a lot in a day, all useful stuff. You can use it to go fast, be safe or both. Your choice. Better than a message board for learning.

A

I have taken the BRC and the ERC. I plan to take the ERC again next year. I figure every 2 years can't hurt.

However, at the ERC, the don't really teach any of that higher speed hanging off the bike stuff...I'll have to go to a trackday for that.

[SVRACER01]

that's perfect right there. love the pic.

you need to be in position before you turn, isn't that right?

yeah..youd like to set up as soon as possible. changing body position mid turn upsets the bike, so you you get yourself into position while the bike is upright you can focus on turning instead of position.

[taxonomy]

I have taken the BRC and the ERC. I plan to take the ERC again next year. I figure every 2 years can't hurt.

However, at the ERC, the don't really teach any of that higher speed hanging off the bike stuff...I'll have to go to a trackday for that.

I take the ERC over and over. This year I will take the Lee Parks Arc course. Lee Parks Design, World's Finest Deerskin Motorcycle Gloves and Accessories

It's more or less billed for people that have moved beyond the ERC but aren't going to go to Superbike School or something like that. For me it's a step between the ERC and track days. These schools have very high teacher to student ratios and they do teach you to hang off, but at 30ish mile per hour parking lot speeds.

For me, I want a lot of instruction and I am not totally sure I am going to learn the max in a higher speed environment like the track. I plan to do a track day later in the year when I have had time to work with what I have learned in the the ARC. I don't want to go to the track and practice my bad habits at speed.

As a side note I think I go faster and smoother on the street not moving around much, way more Hailwood than Rossi. I do move my head and shoulders. I also preposition, so that I am leaned to one side before I start turn in. You will know that you are doing this because you must weight the outside grip.

Look at the corner as it approaches. Figure where you will position yourself for turn in. Where the counter steering will actually happen and get ready for it. This will be the place where you figure you will be able to see far enough into the turn to see your exit, or apex if it is blind or double apex.

You are prepositioned on the bike pressing on the outside to keep going straight. Just release the outside grip and push the inside. Turn in will be dramatic. Use the same amount of body lean throughout the turn. Don't move around once turning!

Keep your elbows down and don't slouch.

You have a lot to think about when turning. Unless you are moving very fast you probably are not getting to the point where lean angle matters. Shifting around a lot gives you more to think about and you're more likely to upset the chassis from crawling around on it.

This said moving the center line of your body inside and using the counter steering technique described above can quickly initiate a turn, reducing the "pencing" and make the bike smoother through the corner.

You can learn a lot riding "actively" at lower speeds. I've been working a lot with hanging off in much tighter, slower corners to experience the weight change but just shifting my body weight and not hanging off at higher speeds because there I have a lot more to think about and am more likely to experience panic reaction.

You sound like your smart enough to think about your riding and understand what's happening. Never underestimate the power to think critically about it.