Question on contesting speed violation

[drop]

Not sure about Vermont, but in Ma. cops usually select "estimate" along with some sort of radar on the ticket, but the proper way they are supposed to "estimate" your speed is to follow you for at least a quarter mile before they can accurately estimate your speed.

Also, ask to see their calibration log for their radar. They usually calibrate it before each shift, but they don't usually log it, so the only proof they have is a certification they get every year. Radar is not always that accurate due to many factors like ground looping from all the other electronics they have wired to their car, radar is very wide so it can bonce off multiple objects to give a false reading, sometimes it adds the speed of the cruiser to the reading, sitting on the dash in the sun can make it inaccurate.

And the things regarding the radar gun are simply untrue.

in MA the estimated box is checked because you're supposed to visually estimate the speed prior to utilizing radar. cops really are trained to do this here - part of your radar certification is demonstrating you can consistently visually estimate the speed of a motor vehicle within 3 MPH.

as highsider said, your claims about radar are just not true. modern radar is incredibly accurate and is not affected by charging system EMI, multipath interference, vehicle motion or direct sunlight/temperature. in fact, a vehicle mounted radar unit can usually display the speed of a moving vehicle with more accuracy than the factory installed speedometer the driver is using.

[toocrazy2yoo]

Pretty much everything you stated doesn't apply in Vermont.

And the things regarding the radar gun are simply untrue.

[sdog30]

I'm no expert on radar, but these are all defensive techniques I've read on a site built by a lawyer on how to beat speeding tickets.

I do know that radar shoots in a wide range and bounces back and laser is a smaller area, that's why they have a hand held unit with a guide that they aim with. They usually target the front plate on a car since it's metal and needs to reflect back to the gun. There's flaws with everything, though and radar and laser are not fool proof. Just because a cop gets several hours of training on how something works doesn't mean they're experts on it.

The reality is that he didn't get gunned in the first place, he got "estimated" which isn't that accurate otherwise they wouldn't bother mounting and using all the equipment they have in their car. Cops are stubborn and never usually back down even if they are wrong.

For example: My friend and I were in his car on the highway, another car that looked similar, but not the same model or color past us and had their headlight out. A minute later we were being pulled over by a Statey for having a headlight out even though you could clearly see that both headlights were functioning. He proceeded to run my friends license and registration and gave him a warning for the light and told him to get the light fixed before letting us go.

In the court of law, you have to be proven guilty beyond a reasonable doubt and when your speeding ticket price is based on exact mph over the limit (like in MA where it's $50 for the first 10mph and then $10 for every mile after that) it's not good enough for a cop who might have seen you pass by for a couple seconds to just throw a speed out of their head, they need to PROVE your speed by using one of the tools that they are given to do that.

This might seem like a contradiction in my statement, but that's how you beat a ticket. It's not 100%, but you have to go in there and disprove their evidence and then provide your own evidence to support your speed. I've had a lot of tickets over turned, grant it they've been getting tougher in court lately. You're almost considered guilty before you even get in there, but it's always worth fighting it. Even if the ticket get's reduced, but you want to go in there with your story ready and not admit guilt at all and hope for the best.

What are you guys, cops or something?

[elissama]

What are you guys, cops or something?

[Kham]

What are you guys, cops or something?

haha. you guessed it. they're all over the place. can't win man. it's like argueing with women. they're always right.

[Brian675]

in MA the estimated box is checked because you're supposed to visually estimate the speed prior to utilizing radar. cops really are trained to do this here - part of your radar certification is demonstrating you can consistently visually estimate the speed of a motor vehicle within 3 MPH.

as highsider said, your claims about radar are just not true. modern radar is incredibly accurate and is not affected by charging system EMI, multipath interference, vehicle motion or direct sunlight/temperature. in fact, a vehicle mounted radar unit can usually display the speed of a moving vehicle with more accuracy than the factory installed speedometer the driver is using.

I know radar first picks up mass then velocity.

So are the police using a newer (more improved) type of radar?

[Honclfibr]

I know radar first picks up mass then velocity.

Huh? Radar is done by emitting a pulse of EMF. It bounces off shit and returns to the detector where the distance from the shit it bounced off is calculated as:

Distance to shit it bounced off = (Speed of light * time it took to get to shit it bounced off and then back to the detector) / 2.

Take two successive measurements of distance from shit it bounced off and now you can calculate speed:

Speed of shit = (Distance to shit it bounced off the second time - Distance to shit it bounced off the first time) / time between pulses that bounced off the shit.

Approximately, but you get the idea. Nothing to do with mass, only how reflective your shit is. And most shit is plenty reflective for radar unless you're cruising around in the fucking stealth bomber.

[obsolete]

Huh? Radar is done by emitting a pulse of EMF. It bounces off shit and returns to the detector where the distance from the shit it bounced off is calculated as:

Distance to shit it bounced off = (Speed of light * time it took to get to shit it bounced off and then back to the detector) / 2.

Take two successive measurements of distance from shit it bounced off and now you can calculate speed:

Speed of shit = (Distance to shit it bounced off the second time - Distance to shit it bounced off the first time) / time between pulses that bounced off the shit.

Approximately, but you get the idea. Nothing to do with mass, only how reflective your shit is. And most shit is plenty reflective for radar unless you're cruising around in the fucking stealth bomber.

I gotta poo now, and pretty fast I might add.

This pretty much explains it. But, radar will usually pick up the object with biggest signature.

[kb1]

And most shit is plenty reflective for radar unless you're cruising around in the fucking stealth bomber.

Well.....now that you mention it...

[Cheese]

I gotta poo now, and pretty fast I might add.

This pretty much explains it. But, radar will usually pick up the object with biggest signature.

Actually RADAR will pick up your shit and any other shit with a RCS that is strong enough to overcome the SNR of the receiver. The processor in a traffic RADAR receiver then prioritizes the fastest moving shit and displays said shit's speed. The accused must then disprove that his shit was the fastest shit detected and therefore the RADAR reading doesn't represent the speed of his shit.

Fuggin' Honci cracks me up.

Disclaimer: Use of the term "shit" in the courtroom will not help your plea.

[Kham]

Approximately, but you get the idea. Nothing to do with mass, only how reflective your shit is. And most shit is plenty reflective for radar unless you're cruising around in the fucking stealth bomber.

doesn't your shit have mass?

[xsiliconkid]

How valid is speed violation when the officer bases your speed off of how fast he had to go to catch up? I just need to know if it would be worth contesting since it was a fair amt of points, and the officer stated that he went X amt of miles to catch up to me so that is what he put down for my speed. Don't know if this changes anything but it was in VT. Thanks.

There are many ways to try and beat speeding tickets in court.....most are urban legions...

Here are the facts from the court case (I was in the room) where the defendant was trying to prove a number of points to try and beat a speeding ticket. Starting with when a radar gun was last calibrated focusing on the officer who was on the side of the road, to the fact the pursuit car that eventually stopped the driver could not have caught up if he was travelling anywhere near the speed reported, by using math x=y/blah ....

After a while the judge turned to the Officer and asked, "I remind you you are still under oath. In your capacity as a traffic patrol police 0fficer, what speed was the defendant travelling"? The officer replied, "In excess of 80 mph in a 45mph zone, your honor".
The judge turned to the defendant and said, even if the radar was out of calibration and the pursuit Officer never had a chance to match your speed to check against his speedometer, or even if it did and it was out of calibration, police officers are trained to estimate the speed of vehicles blah blah blah.... and I will take an Officer of the law's sworn statement over the ramblings of the accused. Guilty! (BTW the judge doubled the fine and time in jail).

Good luck

[Brian675]

Approximately, but you get the idea. Nothing to do with mass, only how reflective your shit is. And most shit is plenty reflective for radar unless you're cruising around in the fucking stealth bomber.

I thought mass had something to do with it
Guess I'm wrong.

[toocrazy2yoo]

I thought mass had something to do with it
Guess I'm wrong.

Nope. It's all about what's giving the greatest return. You could have a pillow fronted by a mirror 5X5 feet, or a chuck of lead fronted by a mirror 3X3 feet and the bigger return is the clock.

Problem not yet addressed here is, with radar, the beam spreads out in a cone. I forget the exact numbers, but it's 5' wide at a hundred yards out from the gun, 15 or 18 at 500 yards and at 1000 yards, the beam is out over 200 feet wide or probably more. THAT is why it's interesting that a cop always seems to pick a bike out of a pack of cars and semi-tractor trailers when the bike's reflective capacity and frontal area is at most 5% of the total. In that scenareo, the cop always goes for the easiest pullover. Bad shit for a bike is, the bike could have a tractor trailer 100 yards or 200 or 500 yards behind him, the bike could be slower than the tractor trailer, and get credit for the trucker's speed. Happens all the time. Radar leaves the most to the cop's imagination, prejudices and misconceptions, but remember. In ALL scenarios, the bike is the easier pullover. And, given that the traffic radar is considered instant proof of misdeed, or prima facie, self evident, no arguing the accuracy in spite of numerous scenarios where the radar COULD be inaccurate as pointed out by our very own DOT and NHTSA, most judges assume the sterling character and judgment of the cop and dismiss any protest by the offender out of hand once you get past the issue of the maintenance. Judges have to keep THEIR jobs and keep the dough rolling in too! Money is money, business is business. It's a three-way triangle of cops, courts and insurance companies. And all the players are required to play ball.

I like laser. The beam is as wide at 1000 yards as it is at 1 foot. Plant it on the license plate of the suspected guilty party and bada-bing, bada-boom, issue the payin' paper to the suspected guilty party. No reflections off power lines, no "mistaken" ID, no nonsense. For any given cop that's running an honest poker game, I'll take laser every time..

[highsider]

First, let me say that I'm not trying to bust anyone's chops, I just dont want to see anyone go into court with a bunch of misinformation.

I'm no expert on radar, but these are all defensive techniques I've read on a site built by a lawyer on how to beat speeding tickets.

Like most things on the internet, that site is worth whatever you pay for it. It would be incredibly difficult for anyone, including a lawyer, to put out information that would be valid to all different states in the US, since each state is vastly different in its method of traffic enforcement.

I do know that radar shoots in a wide range and bounces back and laser is a smaller area, that's why they have a hand held unit with a guide that they aim with. They usually target the front plate on a car since it's metal and needs to reflect back to the gun. There's flaws with everything, though and radar and laser are not fool proof. Just because a cop gets several hours of training on how something works doesn't mean they're experts on it.

Umm.....so how *do* you become an expert? By reading stuff off from a web site? (Okay cheap shot, I apologize. )

Cops are trained to setup, test and operate radar or laser. In doing so, they should be adequately trained to be aware of all potential pitfalls and errors.

The reality is that he didn't get gunned in the first place, he got "estimated" which isn't that accurate otherwise they wouldn't bother mounting and using all the equipment they have in their car.

That is why I asked earlier if he had been cited under VT's "Too Fast for Conditions" statute, which wouldn't necessarily require an exact speed.

Cops are stubborn and never usually back down even if they are wrong.

Yes, and everyone who does whatever you do for work has pink toenails and green hair.

[QUOTE]


I'm just curious, but what ever happened to taking responsibility for your actions? If you were speeding, you get a ticket. If you cant ride within the speed limits on the road, we have several track day vendors on this site who can satisfy your need for speed in a considerably safer and cheaper manner.

And even beyond that, I am constantly amazed by the number of these threads lately. I have been a cop less than two years; before I was a cop I rode around on an R1 with a loud pipe for years. I never got pulled over on it, even once. Because I left my "spirited" riding for places appropriate for such things and rode like a sane human through towns and crowded areas.

If you want to pay less for your ticket, or think you deserve a break because you have demonstrated a clean driving record, thats one thing. But blaming your ticket on the cop because somehow its their fault you were speeding is.....silly.

[ssg]

I'm just curious, but what ever happened to taking responsibility for your actions? If you were speeding, you get a ticket. If you cant ride within the speed limits on the road, we have several track day vendors on this site who can satisfy your need for speed in a considerably safer and cheaper manner.

And even beyond that, I am constantly amazed by the number of these threads lately. I have been a cop less than two years; before I was a cop I rode around on an R1 with a loud pipe for years. I never got pulled over on it, even once. Because I left my "spirited" riding for places appropriate for such things and rode like a sane human through towns and crowded areas.

If you want to pay less for your ticket, or think you deserve a break because you have demonstrated a clean driving record, thats one thing. But blaming your ticket on the cop because somehow its their fault you were speeding is.....silly.

well put.

[drop]

I'm no expert on radar, but these are all defensive techniques I've read on a site built by a lawyer on how to beat speeding tickets.
[...]
Just because a cop gets several hours of training on how something works doesn't mean they're experts on it.

i'll agree with that. however, here's how i look at it:

you (or anyone) receives: an hour or so of research on a website posted by a non-radar certified lawyer, based on often factually inconsistent data.

officer (MA) receives: 8 hours of situational and hands on training by a state certified instructor, then 32 hours of supervised field training by a certified officer on your department (usually their FTO) doing speed estimation and operating radar.

while neither may be experts, using this comparison i have to say the cop is at least *closer* to being an expert than the average driver.

[sdog30]

First, let me say that I'm not trying to bust anyone's chops, I just dont want to see anyone go into court with a bunch of misinformation.




Like most things on the internet, that site is worth whatever you pay for it. It would be incredibly difficult for anyone, including a lawyer, to put out information that would be valid to all different states in the US, since each state is vastly different in its method of traffic enforcement.



Umm.....so how *do* you become an expert? By reading stuff off from a web site? (Okay cheap shot, I apologize. )

Cops are trained to setup, test and operate radar or laser. In doing so, they should be adequately trained to be aware of all potential pitfalls and errors.



That is why I asked earlier if he had been cited under VT's "Too Fast for Conditions" statute, which wouldn't necessarily require an exact speed.



Yes, and everyone who does whatever you do for work has pink toenails and green hair.




I'm just curious, but what ever happened to taking responsibility for your actions? If you were speeding, you get a ticket. If you cant ride within the speed limits on the road, we have several track day vendors on this site who can satisfy your need for speed in a considerably safer and cheaper manner.

And even beyond that, I am constantly amazed by the number of these threads lately. I have been a cop less than two years; before I was a cop I rode around on an R1 with a loud pipe for years. I never got pulled over on it, even once. Because I left my "spirited" riding for places appropriate for such things and rode like a sane human through towns and crowded areas.

If you want to pay less for your ticket, or think you deserve a break because you have demonstrated a clean driving record, thats one thing. But blaming your ticket on the cop because somehow its their fault you were speeding is.....silly.

Look, I could give a shit if he get's off. This isn't a thread on how to ride responsibly, the guys asking how to get off a ticket and I'm not an expert on radar or a cop, but I have a ton of experience with getting tickets and fighting them. Do these techniques always work, no. The reality is I don't know the full story since he's being real vague, but I'll do what ever I have to in order to avoid a ticket in court.

Don't take it personal, I've known a lot of cops and have liked many of them, but there are a lot that are stubborn and make generalizations. I got pulled over all the time when I owned my Mustang and never in my Jeep or Altima. Tell me you wouldn't pull over a car with rims, loud bass and tinted windows assuming they have a warrant, gun or something else?

If you said all contractors are drunks, I wouldn't get offended that I don't drink. If you're a good, fair and honest cop and a cool guy, good for you. We'd probably get along well. Should this guy except getting a ticket for riding too fast, sure, part of the game. Should he not fight, up to him. Maybe it's not worth taking the time off and driving up to Vermont, but it's been worth it to me. You never know, maybe the officer won't show (even though they usually have reps now) or maybe this cop doesn't have sufficient evidence since it sounds like he doesn't have him on radar.

Whatever, I don't care, just thought I'd help a fellow biker with something I have ALOT of experience with...fighting tickets.

[BluGixxer]

most judges assume the sterling character and judgment of the cop and dismiss any protest by the offender out of hand once you get past the issue of the maintenance. Judges have to keep THEIR jobs and keep the dough rolling in too! Money is money, business is business

I am a firm believer that you should take responsibility for your actions.. and that honest mistakes can be forgiven not crucified
but some of these cops are just DBdickheads that want to make laws acording to what they want vrs. enforcing laws and codes that are already there..
Useing good judgement and integrity seem to be going by the wayside..

Now, trying to defend yourself seems to be SILLY..these cops learn the ins and outs of what they do.. Get a good lawyer, the lawyer most likely will not pick your case apart , that would take to much time and money .. they will negotiate the best deal that you can afford, or that you paid for. Comes out cheaper in the end with points and insurance hikes.

As for taking resposibility for your actions, states and townships have turned the protect and serve into the easiest way to balance there budget. taking a simple speeding ticket and collecting different ways , fine, then court cost, then surcharges, then DOT will assess driver pionts fines yearly, and then the ins rate increase,, wich goes on for years.. Thats Bull$#^!

If the police were truly looking out for your best intrest , they would not need unmarked cars or have to hide in the bushes on the side of the road with radar or laser guns..

Get a lawyer ..

[toocrazy2yoo]

i'll agree with that. however, here's how i look at it:

you (or anyone) receives: an hour or so of research on a website posted by a non-radar certified lawyer, based on often factually inconsistent data. officer (MA) receives: 8 hours of situational and hands on training by a state certified instructor, then 32 hours of supervised field training by a certified officer on your department (usually their FTO) doing speed estimation and operating radar. while neither may be experts, using this comparison i have to say the cop is at least *closer* to being an expert than the average driver.

Well, I've beaten Loudon County, Louisa County and Fairfax County, Va. cops on one, two, and two occasions (respectively) over the last twenty years based on their faulty-ass, lame testimony and as far as I'm concerned, criminal misstatements in court as to how they used the KR10 and KR-12 instant-on radar units to bust ME out of a pack of vehicles moving faster than I was while I was out on the bike. Nonsensical notions that they "Isolated" the return on my bike at an admitted 500 yards or more and a beam spread of over 100 feet (and that's PER Kustom Electronics' own instructions as to the use of these devices). Cops are instructed in so many words that these are for use against a single target, not multiple. Radar is NOT Lidar, it isn't nearly so precise, and everyone in the cop/court/insurance business knows it. So, I take the charts from the manufacturer into court, draw the cones and distances on the courtroom whiteboard, hand the judge the printout the cops are trained on showing the spread of the signal to the target, and they throw it out of court. They HAVE to. But the onus is ALWAYS on the defendant, because unless you show contradiction to the prima facie standard (in effect making a crooked process look like a monkey), you're busted. Remember, the common denominator is always, the bike is the easier bust. Always. Cops are practical. Easy is best.

But you cops and pro-cops out there pushing (and enforcing) the "accuracy" of speed monitoring radar in the Kustom Electronics radar venue, stow it sideways dry, ok? Nothing is "isolated", it's your word against ours, and in this dog and pony show, in multi-vehicle radar profiles, any notion that you "isolated the bike" is nonsenscal and crooked. And if that's what YOU participate in, well, if the shoe fits, wear it. So I know how to beat it, it's easy if you have the backbone, and so what? I wasn't speeding then, I'm not speeding now. But that doesn't mean the cops, courts and insurance companies aren't out to pick my pocket anyway.

[drop]

Well, I've beaten Loudon County, Louisa County and Fairfax County, Va. cops on one, two, and two occasions (respectively) over the last twenty years based on their faulty-ass, lame testimony and as far as I'm concerned, criminal misstatements in court as to how they used the KR10 and KR-12 instant-on radar units to bust ME out of a pack of vehicles moving faster than I was while I was out on the bike. Nonsensical notions that they "Isolated" the return on my bike at an admitted 500 yards or more and a beam spread of over 100 feet (and that's PER Kustom Electronics' own instructions as to the use of these devices). Cops are instructed in so many words that these are for use against a single target, not multiple. Radar is NOT Lidar, it isn't nearly so precise, and everyone in the cop/court/insurance business knows it. So, I take the charts from the manufacturer into court, draw the cones and distances on the courtroom whiteboard, hand the judge the printout the cops are trained on showing the spread of the signal to the target, and they throw it out of court. They HAVE to. But the onus is ALWAYS on the defendant, because unless you show contradiction to the prima facie standard (in effect making a crooked process look like a monkey), you're busted. Remember, the common denominator is always, the bike is the easier bust. Always. Cops are practical. Easy is best.

But you cops and pro-cops out there pushing (and enforcing) the "accuracy" of speed monitoring radar in the Kustom Electronics radar venue, stow it sideways dry, ok? Nothing is "isolated", it's your word against ours, and in this dog and pony show, in multi-vehicle radar profiles, any notion that you "isolated the bike" is nonsenscal and crooked. And if that's what YOU participate in, well, if the shoe fits, wear it. So I know how to beat it, it's easy if you have the backbone, and so what? I wasn't speeding then, I'm not speeding now. But that doesn't mean the cops, courts and insurance companies aren't out to pick my pocket anyway.

while i still maintain radar is accurate when used appropriately...we all know it's easier to park, paint the highway and wait for a 20+ to pop on the display. is that playing by the book? no. unfortunately, there are going to be some people in every profession that want to earn the biggest paycheck they can by doing the least amount of work possible. contractors that do shoddy work at the expense of the customer to save a buck or finish the day early. surgeons that won't take a risky patient because they don't want their stats (and the related salary) to go down. union lobbyists that fight to get every last dollar in exchange for less and less productivity while the company that pays them falls apart financially. you could say firefighters are the only guys left that do the job till it's truly done, and they can't even catch a break these days.

a big issue that comes up over and over is that it's on the defendant to prove his or her innocence when it comes to speeding (or any moving violation) and that the court will always side with the cop. i understand where you're coming from, but how else do you organize the parade? do you assume the defendant is honest and the cop is lying until he can prove otherwise? do you assume both are telling the truth and hope one of the two brought a better visual presentation with them? does the fact that the defendant knows the intricacies of DSP and can teach a 7 year old about the physics of radar really mean they weren't speeding? it's an honest question - i'm really not sure what a better approach would be. the court has to put the basis of trust on something, and i don't see a better option than those individuals hired by the town/city/state to enforce the laws.

[sdog30]

Well, I've beaten Loudon County, Louisa County and Fairfax County, Va. cops on one, two, and two occasions (respectively) over the last twenty years based on their faulty-ass, lame testimony and as far as I'm concerned, criminal misstatements in court as to how they used the KR10 and KR-12 instant-on radar units to bust ME out of a pack of vehicles moving faster than I was while I was out on the bike. Nonsensical notions that they "Isolated" the return on my bike at an admitted 500 yards or more and a beam spread of over 100 feet (and that's PER Kustom Electronics' own instructions as to the use of these devices). Cops are instructed in so many words that these are for use against a single target, not multiple. Radar is NOT Lidar, it isn't nearly so precise, and everyone in the cop/court/insurance business knows it. So, I take the charts from the manufacturer into court, draw the cones and distances on the courtroom whiteboard, hand the judge the printout the cops are trained on showing the spread of the signal to the target, and they throw it out of court. They HAVE to. But the onus is ALWAYS on the defendant, because unless you show contradiction to the prima facie standard (in effect making a crooked process look like a monkey), you're busted. Remember, the common denominator is always, the bike is the easier bust. Always. Cops are practical. Easy is best.

But you cops and pro-cops out there pushing (and enforcing) the "accuracy" of speed monitoring radar in the Kustom Electronics radar venue, stow it sideways dry, ok? Nothing is "isolated", it's your word against ours, and in this dog and pony show, in multi-vehicle radar profiles, any notion that you "isolated the bike" is nonsenscal and crooked. And if that's what YOU participate in, well, if the shoe fits, wear it. So I know how to beat it, it's easy if you have the backbone, and so what? I wasn't speeding then, I'm not speeding now. But that doesn't mean the cops, courts and insurance companies aren't out to pick my pocket anyway.

That's all I've been trying to say, it's always better to fight the ticket, but you have to PROVE the officer didn't accurately enough prove your speed.

I just noticed highsider is from Vermont...he's probably the cop that pulled you over

He's got all our notes now for the case, good thing this guy was real vague about the facts. Who knows who's on these forums.

I'm out...good luck Megatron...no hard feelings highsider, see you out on the trails.

[drop]

How valid is speed violation when the officer bases your speed off of how fast he had to go to catch up? I just need to know if it would be worth contesting since it was a fair amt of points, and the officer stated that he went X amt of miles to catch up to me so that is what he put down for my speed. Don't know if this changes anything but it was in VT. Thanks.

don't know VT law but if i got that in mass, i'd fight it. doesn't sound like there's anything that resembles an accurate measurement in that statement. anyone could drive 80mph to catch up to a car doing 40mph, that doesn't mean the car doing 40 was necessarily going faster beforehand. how long before he started pursuit? how far did he have to go to catch you? did he go 80 the whole time or vary his speed? was the officer coming toward you? if so, how long did it take him to turn around in traffic and then catch up to you? how much faster did he need to drive to make up for the lost time turning around?

(back on topic )

[Kham]

I'm just curious, but what ever happened to taking responsibility for your actions? If you were speeding, you get a ticket. If you cant ride within the speed limits on the road, we have several track day vendors on this site who can satisfy your need for speed in a considerably safer and cheaper manner.

shutup you twit! :

speeding alone is not irresponsible. just because the posted speed doesn't make it right. i will be responsible if i fall off the bike on my own.

[Megatron802]

If you want to pay less for your ticket, or think you deserve a break because you have demonstrated a clean driving record, thats one thing. But blaming your ticket on the cop because somehow its their fault you were speeding is.....silly.[/QUOTE]

this is more so what i was going for...the other stuff was in case batting my eyes doesnt help lower the points.

EDIT: I just want to put out there that I have no issue paying the fine...its the amt of points that i would like to stay off my license, thats why I would like to try to contest this.