Worst maintenance gouging story ever?

[benVFR]

What is the worst gouging story you've ever heard?

There is a guy over on ST.net who is talking about paying $2000+ to the dealer over 20k miles on his VFR.. major laugh.

3 hour labor charge for the 4k service - $290.
- Oil + filter + check clutch/brake fluid + brake pads

$450 for the 8k checkup - same thing except inspect the head bearings and a couple of other items + new tires

$500 for the 12k checkup - it's a hard one, the air filter needs to be changed

$1700 for the 16k checkup - they billed 12 hours for the valve check

$300 for the 20k check

This is the craziest thing I've ever heard. If you actually had to pay that I'd just never do any maintenance and just ride till the engine croaked.

[R7]

How long does it take you to perform your own service on the bike? I do all my own service except the valves (and I hardly ever own them long ennough to even check them) and it seems whenever I change the oil, I end up giving the bike a once over checking fluids and whatnot and I always spend 2-3 hours.
Yeah, some of those prices seem high and inflated but I'd pay if I knew someone was giving my bike the same attention that I do.

Keep in mind that the dealers need to make some money and I'm sure not as much as you think of that $75.00 per hour rate is actual profit. I'm gonna guess with all the costs of insurance, comp, tech's wages and the overhead involved, I'd be they're only making about a 10% profit

[Cue Ball]

I got my valves adjusted and fluids toped off for $117 this past spring...

[benVFR]

I haven't taken my current bike back for anything. I don't think I will until 16k miles.

But I know most dealers won't charge nearly that much. The guy actually posted the receipts from the dealer, the labor estimates were 2-3x longer then Honda says the job should take.

[RandyO]

I'm one of thos guys who has a dealer do almost everythng, can't afford not to. It cost me about $125-150 for a regular minor service, oil change, check fluids, bolts, cables, lingage, etc. like R7 sez it takes him, 2-3 hours to do the job right, when I pick up my bike in the afternoon, after dropping it off that morning, it seems like I'm picking up a brand new bike

[richw]

The BMW I bought had maintainence receipts

Fork seals
adjust valves and carbs
battery
air cleaner, oil etc
rear tire ME88

$1508

6 months later I buy the bike for 2750

PS the neck bearings triple tree was so loose as to have high speed wobble at like 40 MPH. The exhaust valves was toast and had near zero clearence.

I am sure there are other Beemer guys lurking to embarrassed.

Lets here from some desmo adjuster strories

[benVFR]

Randy $125-150 sounds perfectly reasonable for what you mentioned.

$300 sounds like gouging, especially when the checklist for that mileage interval doesn't even include an oil change, just check the fluids & brake pads..

I think I paid about $375 back in 2003 to get fork seals & valve adjustment on my SV.

I'll be in for a valve adjust on the VFR this spring/summer.. Given a better equipped garage and someone to supervise me I'd maybe try it myself but it's a big enough job I don't think a case of beer would cover that kind of favor!

[benVFR]

I thought BMWs would be cheap since you have to disassemble so little of the bike to do the maintenance.

[Onedwn5up]

12 hours of labor is gouging and bordering illegal.

I was a service manager for a honda shop and there is flat-rate that the manual states. Then I look at the actual time that it takes the technician. Things do come up from time to time but there is no reason it took this guy two days to do valves. His ass should be fired. We did a vfr and 7 of the 8 valves were out, it got new ebc brake rotors, brake pads, stainless lines, chain, sprockets, and tires and the bill was still less than that.

I am happy that I know what jobs should take so I discuss it up front. Also, if I bring a bike to a dealer to have somehting like valves done, I pre-tear the bike down so that the tech has minimal work to do, thus minimizing my costs.

That shop would never get any of my business again and Honda would get a call directly from me stating that they charged 3 or 4 times the flat rate in the dealer service manual.

[benVFR]

Thanks.. nice to hear from someone who is in the know.

Believe it or not the rider vehemently defended that dealer, he thought it was perfectly normal to charge that much and this dealer was just doing a better job then others.

[R7]

Originally posted by benVFR
I thought BMWs would be cheap since you have to disassemble so little of the bike to do the maintenance.

Yeah but the gaskets to put the thing back together are probably $1,500 compared to $100 in parts to do the same job on a Jap bike

[Onedwn5up]

bmw techs are $100/hour labor, sometimes more.

Just trying to get to some of the parts take practically an hour of removing panels and fasteners. Getting to the engine on some of the new bikes like the k12's from 02 on up is over an hour ordeal.

if youre a bmw tech you xould also probably get into the electrical workers union those things are that complex.

[sanfelice]

On my "project" bike (79), for the complete bike, I paid half of the dealer bill from two years previous - $2600 - for a new wiring harness, adjust this, that, blah, blah. Then again, it was a bill from Parkway, so I'm sure it was double what it should have been. I cannot believe that the PO paid that much on a then-23-year-old bike, but he did. Plus, since it was a new wiring harness, rectifier, etc, that decision helped me to buy the bike.

[Paul_E_D]

The way to stop the gouging is to isolate jobs. Don't let them adjust and lube the chain, change oil, blah, blah. They won't even touch most of the stuff on the list. They just eyeball it. That's just ridiculous to pay for.

I can get my Duc valves adjusted for under 200 bucks. All I do is ask for valve adjust ONLY. Not the 6k service package.

Most Duc owners don't have the balls to adjust their chain, so they deserve to pay IMO.

[RandyO]

Originally posted by Paul_E_D
The way to stop the gouging is to isolate jobs. Don't let them adjust and lube the chain, change oil, blah, blah. They won't even touch most of the stuff on the list. They just eyeball it.

I have to disagree with that one, if a dealer is charging you for something he didn't do..... FIND A NEW DEALER. if changing the oil was the only requirement of a service, I'd do it myself, the most important part of the service is not the oil change, it cleaning & lubing linkage, pivot bolts, cables etc. and it does take a couple hours to do properly

[Paul_E_D]

I'm not quite sure what you think they do. You would have to dissassemble the rear end to lube the linkages. Most of them have rubber bushes anyway, not really a lubed part.

Swingarm bearings are hard to get at, and I've never heard of a shop repacking them in a service.

Head bearings are very easy to repack/retorque. Not worth the 60 dollars they charge.

Don't get me wrong, if you have a great service dept. and money to spend, go for it. In my experience shops don't really do much other than check the stuff. If it moves smoothly, they don't do anything, but charge you for it cause they checked it. Plus, they over tighten chains all the time!!!

[Currently]

Is that why there is no more entries than what is already there in the "good dealer" vs. "bad dealer" section of the forum?

I do have to admit there seems to be a lot of good "independent" performance shops in the area that have a good reputation!

Good thread that impacts everybody here!

[RandyO]

Originally posted by Paul_E_D
I'm not quite sure what you think they do. You would have to dissassemble the rear end to lube the linkages. Most of them have rubber bushes anyway, not really a lubed part.

Swingarm bearings are hard to get at, and I've never heard of a shop repacking them in a service.

Head bearings are very easy to repack/retorque. Not worth the 60 dollars they charge.

Don't get me wrong, if you have a great service dept. and money to spend, go for it. In my experience shops don't really do much other than check the stuff. If it moves smoothly, they don't do anything, but charge you for it cause they checked it. Plus, they over tighten chains all the time!!!

like I said, FIND a different dealer, that hasn't been my experience, most dealers don't do it cause thay aren't asked, most people ask only for an oil change cause the think that's all that is needed

I didn't say anything about swingarm bearings, I said LINKAGE, you know, the mechanisms that connect the shift pedal to the shifter arm, what other linkage is there? you talkiing about the dogbone on the bottom of the shock or something ?

geeze Paul, I thought you knew more about bike maintenance

[Paul_E_D]

Shift linkages. OK, I was thinking of suspension linkages.

Sure, a dab of grease can help once in a while.

I maintane 3 bikes and a car. I'm like a full time mechanic. I guess that stuff seems so minor to me, I cringe at the thought of paying for it. I understand the time thing though. I pay to have my truck serviced.

You're kind of in a different category though Randy. Your bike sees more miles than my car.

BTW, I bet you'd benefit nicely from a dissassembly of the rear end for cleaning, perhaps replacement of swingarm bearings and suspension bushes.

[RandyO]

I'm planning on a new rear shock this spring, I will have the swingarm bearing & bushings done then

the shift linkage is the most abused mechanical part of your bike, you are manipulating it with a booted foot and it resides near the ground where is gathers road grunge, dirty shift linkage is the biggest cause of missed shifts and false neutrals, it needs more than a dab of grease once in a while, IMHO it should be disassembled and relubed every time you change the oil

your right, I have a different situation than most people, not that I ride a lot, rather most of my milage is business and reimbursed, I get a monthly milage check that more than pays for monthly maintenance, I get paid more doing what I do professionally than I have to pay a dealer mechanic for the same amount of time, I can't afford the time it takes to properly service a vehicle

my milage just means that I have to have services done more often, even if I didn't ride as much, I'd still have dealer service done

[benVFR]

The shift linkage is a piece of cake to clean. And besides, almost all bikes have different designs.

The SV linkage is right out there and the open, makes it easy to switch to GP shifting, but it collects dirt. But say on the VFR the linkage is internal, the shift rod just attaches to a bolt, it doesn't collect dirt at all. (I don't see how you change it to GP shifting, but I don't really care)

In my case the sidestand and centerstand seem to be the mud/grease targets, my centerstand already has some tightness in it.

[richw]

The Devil is the standard rate manual

In car dealerships they get...

x hours for this x job if they take longer they get no more money but....

If they take less time they still get the standard rate x hours and money.

so what is the hidden message in you get the same money as soon as this car is back out in the sunshine

I do not know if there are standard rates for motorcycles I am sure there are for warrantee work that carries into customer work.


There are also a lot of MC shops in the seasonal catoagory where they have 1 mechanic and 3 monkeys during the season so who knows what will happen. At marinas usually its all whinos during the summer. I think thanks to ATv's and snowmobiles there is less of this now then in the past.

I have always been to chicken to ride at speed not knowing the quality of the last guy to work on this.

[KB]

The craziest thing I have ever heard about is one knucklehead talking about another knucklehead from one forum on another.

KB

[SVRACER01]

Originally posted by benVFR
The shift linkage is a piece of cake to clean. And besides, almost all bikes have different designs.

The SV linkage is right out there and the open, makes it easy to switch to GP shifting, but it collects dirt. But say on the VFR the linkage is internal, the shift rod just attaches to a bolt, it doesn't collect dirt at all. (I don't see how you change it to GP shifting, but I don't really care)

In my case the sidestand and centerstand seem to be the mud/grease targets, my centerstand already has some tightness in it.

there you go ben, its stupid things like that on the VFR that make the bike more difficult to work on. obviously a valve job on an SV is gonna be cheaper when there is NO bodywork, 2 cylinders and only 8 valves and everything is in the open. do you even know what your motor LOOKS like? chalk up an hour at least for bodywork removal and then you still have to put it back on, not to mention its a V4 so at least twice as many valves to check (i dont know if its a 5 valve motor) that means more time turning the motor over to get to another valve. and are they shim UNDER bucket? theres even MORE time because now the cams have to come out. if its got that Vtech motor in it then im sure thats fun to work around. if something as simple as shift linkage is buried then what do you think the rest of the bike is like? bikes are not designed to be WORKED on. thats why they make special tools to take all that crap off. special tools arent cheap, so labor rates go up to make up for cost of tools and such. Sampsonl is right, the book for flat rate says one thing but ACTUAL time is something else. companies determine flat rate by giving a tech a NEW bike and ALL the tools needed for the job and let him do it 3-4 times and then make a flat rate time for it. i dont about you but if i got to do something 3-4 times and had ALL the tools for the job right in front of me i would get pretty fast with it.

[benVFR]

I like having the shift linkage internal. It means you never run into the problem Randy has. It's a zero maintenance item.

Since no one races VFRs any more, who the heck cares about GP shifting, you might as well put the linkage on the inside and lose a maintenance task.

Yes of course the bike is complex, yes that valve job sucks. No it doesn't bother me. No it is not complicated in the grand scheme of things, not many motorcycles are.