A ride at NHIS w/ instructor Craig McLean

[OreoGaborio]

from Jason Pridmore's STAR school

click

[a13x]

Interesting.
Bit different in a few spots than a onboard lap with Jeff and Eric.

[JeffL]

I'm far from one to comment, but is that a really "inside" line he takes into 6, or is that not that far off from a race line you guys might use? The line he uses to set up for 11 is definitely something I took note of.

[Kham]

is the throttle number acurate?

the throttle is at 0 going into most every turns and cracked open at apex. isn't that charging the turn? doesn't go with what the book says because the suspension is not settle while shutting throttle off then turn or am i misunderstanding things? shouldn't the throttle be cracked open ASAP and not just at the apex?

ps. im one even further to comment.

[TTD]

First... note that the PIT OUT was NOT CORRECT! NEVER do it that way!

Other than going wide in Turn 11, he was on the exact line I take.

Please pay close attention to the Turn 9 area. Notice how you come over the hill (under the tree stand where the corner worker is), and go right to the APEX cone in 9.

You then let it drift away from the left edge a bit, and then come back to the left near the bottom of the hill.

Also notice how he does NOT stay on the RIGHT side in 10. You clip the apex (where the blue foam hut is), then accelerate and let the bike drift a bit to the left.

[JeffL]

After spending the day at the races, it seems that somewhat more "inside" line coming into 6 is what alot of the guys out there seemed to be doing. Maybe the viewpoint from stands outside the bowl is what makes it look different, but is the cone placement you guys use at the track day pretty close to the turn-in point most of the faster racers out there are using? Being on the track and up in the stands are certainly 2 different perspectives, so kind of hard to correlate them without much experience on my part with either.

[TTD]

If you are on a low power bike, a real late entry works best to keep power up.

On a 600 or greater, you can cut in earlier and make a harder turn... then motor out.

[a13x]

Originally posted by 35racer
If you are on a low power bike, a real late entry works best to keep power up.

On a 600 or greater, you can cut in earlier and make a harder turn... then motor out.

Neat, cause that's what I do (low power). Thx.

[OreoGaborio]

Originally posted by 35racer
First... note that the PIT OUT was NOT CORRECT! NEVER do it that way!

Other than going wide in Turn 11, he was on the exact line I take.

Please pay close attention to the Turn 9 area. Notice how you come over the hill (under the tree stand where the corner worker is), and go right to the APEX cone in 9.

You then let it drift away from the left edge a bit, and then come back to the left near the bottom of the hill.

Also notice how he does NOT stay on the RIGHT side in 10. You clip the apex (where the blue foam hut is), then accelerate and let the bike drift a bit to the left.

on all points... pitout was absolutely horrible but that video shows pretty good the line I aspire to be on... however it did show me a different line into 6 that I used a couple times to pass people... it seems like everyone stays far right going into the bowl so i made alot of moves up the inside in the braking zone. I also made a big number of passes on the outside coming out of 10.

I've yet to find a good line through the bowl that allows me to stay in the power band though... it seems as though if i dont do it perfect, i'm absolutely bogging goin up the hill, but it's tough for me to shift while leaned over... i gotta work on that. I don't shift untill I'm flipping for 8.

Kham - riding the track is completely different than the street as i'm sure you know... but one of the biggest differences is that you're almost always trail braking, carrying your cornerspeed to the apex and getting on the gas just before apex... obviously every turn is different, but that's the general sequence - trail brake in, neutral throttle just before apex & roll on it as you exit.

[Ken C]

Pete is correct about the throttle at the apex. On the street, tip in and on the throttle early. Some corners on the track allow earlier throttle, but often, by the time you're able to get on the throttle, you're already at the apex, even with a quick turn in.

A mistake a lot of track riders make is coasting, neither on the brakes or on the throttle.

The turn 6 line the STAR guy uses is one that works for passing, but not my fastest line, which is to come in shallow, but head to the outer edge of the track and turn in quickly to get an early drive out.

[Kham]

k... didn't see the trail brake but if he is wouldn't you see the throttle # greater than 0 rigfht after the steering is done? doesn't look like it. im always thinking of the 40/60 front to back rules which would apply more on the track and getting the throttle cracked open asap wich could be anywhere depending on entry speed.

[Kham]

Originally posted by Ken C


A mistake a lot of track riders make is coasting,

that's what i use to do on the street.

[OreoGaborio]

if you're on the brakes after your turn-in, you're trail braking. so if he's leaned over & the brake number is more than 0%, you're seeing trail braking.

You come up to a corner, start your braking as late as possible, initiate your turn-in, brake as you're turning... the more you lean over, the more you feather out the brake lever (as your lean angle increases, your braking ability decreases)... once you reach your desired cornerspeed, you feather out the brakes all the way, crack open the throttle to stabilize the chasis, ride that speed to the apex, get to the apex (which has many definitions, but most commonly referrs to the point where you begin to exit the turn)... and roll on the gas as you exit the turn.

at least that's how i'd describe it in it's most basic terms for your average corner, say turn 1.

[Kham]

edit:

hmm... you mean everage high speed corners?

i thought trail braking uses rear brake? so you could be throttling while trail braking?

[OreoGaborio]

any corner really... trail braking has nothing to do w/ the rear brake... it's simply braking while in a corner... you "trail off" (ease off) the brakes as you lean the bike over further.

[Ken C]

Trail braking is using whatever brakes you're using, front or rear. In its simplest terms, it refers to braking while leaning.

[Kham]

thank you gents. i don't think i'll be doing any trail braking any time soon.

[Kham]

anyway... if you need to trail brake then you're going in hot, you're charging, you're coasting until the apex which means your suspension is not working at it's optimum which means less stability. isn't that correct?

[Paul_E_D]

Well, Charging a turn refers to going in at such a speed that you have triggered survival reactions. It could be trail braking, it could be staying off the throttle, turning in late, adjusting your line, looking down at the pavement, or a combo of all those things. The end result is a horrible turn, butterflies in your stomach, a crash, or all of those things!

Trail braking is an advanced technique that does not mean you are charging the turn.

[Ken C]

Paul is correct.

Charging = Over your head.

[Kham]

As I understand it, charging means you're at such a speed before the apex that you can't roll on anymore because if you do you will go wide or off the pavement. So no roll on, no 40/60 rules, no stability. Don't you want the stability before the apex? After that it doesn't really matter.

[Paul_E_D]

A bike is stable on the brakes. It is least stable while coasting or going too slow. I think you're over analyzing a bit. the 40/60 rule may give you the most stability, but not always the fastest way through.

You're watching laps on a track and comparing that to a conservative street strategy. Apples and oranges...

Yes, it's safest to roll on before the apex in general. But what if the turn your in leads into a much tighter turn? THen what? You have to do what's best for the situation, not what a textbook says.

[Kham]

well no. i'm not saying that will give you the fastest lap. the 40/60 is an ideal # and only get there by acceleration. coastingis 50/50. the throttle would already be cracked open. i don't know the trail braking.

the text is actually written for the track.

anyway... what do i know. thanks for the input.

[TheIglu]

I tend to stay on the brakes way late into 1 and release them completely about 15 feet before the apex. The bowl I get to near full lean (bowl-lean, not regular lean) and tail the front brake off as I dive down into the apex. Perhaps I'm geared lower than pete or something but I can out motor quite a few people out of the bowl. I usually have to pass or let off if there is someone ahead of me, even an SV.

[SVRACER01]

Originally posted by a13x
Neat, cause that's what I do (low power). Thx.

thats what i was thinking too... his lines into 1, 6, and the chicane seem too far "in"