Rider sues Harley Davidson over ABS equipment (or lack thereof)

[DucDave]

This is just awful. Nothing funny or amusing about this tragedy.

The thing that strikes me most is this:

The defence are claiming that the manufacturer puts this icon on all bikes to ensure that bikes that do have ABS will definitely have the accompanying light. The defence lawyer went on to say: "There's nothing odd or unique about a non-ABS bike having ABS. If the icon doesn't light up when you start the bike, anybody should know you don't have ABS."

I am trying hard to recall if any of the many motorcycles I've owned had an ABS light when there was no ABS. I think not. This has got to be the lamest, poorest defense imaginable.

Does Harley Davidson really want us to believe that their manufacturing process and quality control is so poor that the only way they can insure that bikes WITH ABS have the indicator light is to put the light on ALL their bikes? Of course, the real reason...that they saved 79 cents on every bike by not having two different dash indicators wouldn't sound much better.

Please tell me I'm missing something here...

Without a lot more information I'm unable to even guess whether the rider could have avoided the crash. And I really don't think turning this into a helmet thread makes sense either.

[SRTie4k]

Every car manufacturer ever reuses instrument panels, which include "dark" features that might not be on that particular model. For instance. my SRT-4 had an unlit Traction Control light, despite the car not having traction control. I've seen similar things in many other cars I've driven.

Why are bikes special in this instance?

[Lucas]

Really sucks for the riders wife :-/

With that said. No matter what they sell you, you should be knowledgable of the bike you are riding. I know the very first ride on my bike I locked up the wheels to see how the ABS felt.

[DucDave]

Really sucks for the riders wife :-/

With that said. No matter what they sell you, you should be knowledgable of the bike you are riding. I know the very first ride on my bike I locked up the wheels to see how the ABS felt.

I completely agree. That doesn't absolve HD however...!

[OreoGaborio]

I completely agree. That doesn't absolve HD however...!

Right...

But this may...

Every car manufacturer ever reuses instrument panels, which include "dark" features that might not be on that particular model. For instance. my SRT-4 had an unlit Traction Control light, despite the car not having traction control. I've seen similar things in many other cars I've driven.

Why are bikes special in this instance?

If it really is standard practice for all of their bikes to have the PROVISIONS for an ABS light on their dash, that MIGHT be enough for HD to win the fight.

I guess it really depends on all the other little details that weren't available in the article. I posted mainly because I think it'll be interesting to see the outcome and what happens as a result.

[Falko]

I'm kind of surprised a HArley braking system could lock the wheel.

[aldend123]

ABS is ABS, Anti-Lock Braking System. It just modulates the brakes to prevent the wheels from locking up during a panic stop, allowing the rider to manuever while braking.

I understand and appreciate the purpose ABS serves

So I take it you're one of those people that think the masses would be better off without technology that helps keep people safe, huh?

Oh shibby, I think my post may have been misunderstood. I love technology, and love to see it properly used in vehicles. I'm sure some of you know the people who run out and buy 4WD/AWD vehicles thinking they can speed around in the snow, rain, etc thinking their vehicle provides this. Even though it doesn't change how a car stops, or help if all four contact patches lack traction. I was jokingly suggesting that perhaps ABS is the equivalent, in the sense that operators assume that this new technology allows them to get away with a lot more than it really enables. In respect to cars, I think ABS is an awesome advancement, and I'd assume it is the same in motorcycles.

ABS must be a hardcore debate topic here?...

[PinHead]

It is a generic speedo that is used on a couple of bikes. Some bikes with the option, some without.
It is much easier to produce and keep stock that way. I have a had a couple of cars with non used dash lights, security lt. being one of them. Same dash, just no factory security option installed, so it never lit when the car started.

[NobodySpecific]

I have no idea. I assume we are talking motorcycles. Legitimately I don't think that many accidents could be saved because of ABS. In cars, sure. But motorcycles have limited traction and pulsating the brakes isn't going to help that.

So basically...I just avoided your question.

I can assure you that ABS on motorcycles works, I have tested it. Limited traction, say passing a car without realizing that the dry road is wet in the next corner? I was ok with locking the rear on the SV, so I hit the brakes hard enough to find that spot with the plan to back off. Realizing I had ABS, I just kept the pressure on and the bike slowed right down. I KNOW that it would have been sketchy to slow enough to be comfortable to make the turn without it (not saying I would have crashed, but it would have been pushing it a lot more). No drama, no fishtailing, no risk of a high side. Just braking when it would have normally been skidding. Question unavoided.

[vintage ex race]

It is a generic speedo that is used on a couple of bikes. Some bikes with the option, some without.
It is much easier to produce and keep stock that way. I have a had a couple of cars with non used dash lights, security lt. being one of them. Same dash, just no factory security option installed, so it never lit when the car started.

Ya I once had a gas powered chevy PU that had a none working glow plug lite and a 4 WD lite in a 2 wheel drive truck. They just never worked . But it also didn't make me think I had a diesel 4X4 either

[SVRACER01]

Harleys that dont have ABS, but can get it as an option, have a light on the dash. BUT this light doesnt illuminate during the start up process OR when the dash is put into diagnostic mode if the bike isnt equipped. the other catch is this....a HD WITH ABS not only has a light that comes on when you start it, it stays on, and then flashes until you go above 10mph. then the ABS system "arms".

this guys a fucking retard. its just too bad his wife had to suffer the injury that he so clearly deserves.

as a side note. the ABS system works really well. but is only designed to assist in straight line braking. if the bike is turning/leaned its not gonna help. all of this info is in the owners manual which this fucktard obviously didnt read.

[imkindafkedup]

thanks for posting pete. Stupid people always make me feel better about myself.

[DucDave]

Harleys that dont have ABS, but can get it as an option, have a light on the dash. BUT this light doesnt illuminate during the start up process OR when the dash is put into diagnostic mode if the bike isnt equipped. the other catch is this....a HD WITH ABS not only has a light that comes on when you start it, it stays on, and then flashes until you go above 10mph. then the ABS system "arms".

this guys a fucking retard. its just too bad his wife had to suffer the injury that he so clearly deserves.

as a side note. the ABS system works really well. but is only designed to assist in straight line braking. if the bike is turning/leaned its not gonna help. all of this info is in the owners manual which this fucktard obviously didnt read.

Thanks for the clarification Brian. If this guy (or, perhaps his insurance company) has just pulled this outta their ass to cover same then I hope the suit fails. If he really didn't know, based on what you have said, then, he's simply too stupid to have ever had a licence...and yet, he found a women to marry him. I guess there really is someome for everyone...

[butcher bergs]

So you honestly think ABS causes more accidents than it prevents?

Yes. It reduces braking power and the harder you stomp on the pedal the more it takes away.

I have one accident directly related to ABS sucking ass.

I also have on almost-accident due to ABS sucking ass.

Fuck ABS....and airbags for that matter.

[caddydaddy]

Yes. It reduces braking power and the harder you stomp on the pedal the more it takes away.

I have one accident directly related to ABS sucking ass.

I also have on almost-accident due to ABS sucking ass.

Fuck ABS....and airbags for that matter.

But grab that front brake just a little too hard, or hit something a little slippery, and you'll be wishing your bike had ABS!

[butcher bergs]

But grab that front brake just a little too hard, or hit something a little slippery, and you'll be wishing your bike had ABS!

Not in this lifetime. Sorry.

[DucDave]

for superior riders and drivers like bergs abs may not be desirable. For mere mortals like me, I'm usually happy to have it. Having said that, on the Multi, I like that I can turn it off for thise conditions where it would work against me...

[butcher bergs]

I'm not superior at anything. I just don't agree with vehicle regulations that automatically default to certain "safety" features....especially when my braking inputs are taken away. If I could, I'd just assume turn ABS and air bags off.

Hell, I don't even like the TC in the new truck!!

[caddydaddy]

I'm not superior at anything. I just don't agree with vehicle regulations that automatically default to certain "safety" features....especially when my braking inputs are taken away. If I could, I'd just assume turn ABS and air bags off.

Hell, I don't even like the TC in the new truck!!

Where the hell you live that ABS is regulated on bikes? I'm pretty sure it's not 'Merica!
I opted for an ABS bike, the non-ABS was cheaper, but I wanted to have an extra advantage on the unpredictable roads.

Oh, and if you pull the fuse from your ABS, Air Bag and even your TC system, they won't work, rendering your car as useful and safe as a 1974 Pinto.

[barrypz]

I would need some evidence that ABS causes more accidents, since all the organizations that compile facts and figures say that the opposite is true, and true by a very wide margin.

[butcher bergs]

Where the hell you live that ABS is regulated on bikes?

At what point in time did I say bikes?

Oh, and if you pull the fuse from your ABS, Air Bag and even your TC system, they won't work, rendering your car as useful and safe as a 1974 Pinto.

...and there goes my cruise control while the 4wd system goes berzerk.



Thanks but I've found it easier to just live with the shortcomings of these safety features in exchange for driveablility.

I would need some evidence that ABS causes more accidents, since all the organizations that compile facts and figures say that the opposite is true, and true by a very wide margin.

It certainly helps the people who don't learn threshold braking so no arguement there.

[caddydaddy]

It certainly helps the people who don't learn threshold braking so no arguement there.

You can master threshold braking on all varying surfaces? You are not human!

[csmutty]

I would need some evidence that ABS causes more accidents, since all the organizations that compile facts and figures say that the opposite is true, and true by a very wide margin.

For motorcycles?

[Kurlon]

Yes. It reduces braking power and the harder you stomp on the pedal the more it takes away.

Depends on the ABS system. The craptacular setup in my 2000 Subaru Forester? Junk, and absolutely increases stopping distances. The ABS/TC system in my Highlander? Sorry, I'd wager some serious coin that you can't out stop it in good or poor conditions going pure manual. Wanna really drive the point home? Poor conditions and there will be a mandatory chicane in the stopping path. Frigging brilliant.

[butcher bergs]

You can master threshold braking on all varying surfaces? You are not human!

Are you almost done?

The only thing I stated, which you are clearly offended by for some reason, is that I am not a fan of ABS and never will be. The rest of this conversation is you taking issue with that sentiment.

But for your amusement:

Along with my roadracing experience, I have 5 years of ice racing under my belt as well (in cars). During that time I certainly hope I learned something about threshold braking as well as the shortcomings of ABS.