Rider sues Harley Davidson over ABS equipment (or lack thereof)

[Rambunctous]

The most important thing I learned here is that the UK needs to learn the English language. Defence.....spell it right.

[tsorfas]

topic out of control....

[taxonomy]

All I am saying, is that when people think their vehicle (2 or 4 wheeled) is capable of magical things, they drive like their vehicle is capable of magical things. Not saying this accident couldn't have been prevented if he did, in fact, have ABS, but riding around like he did without actually checking was pretty dumb.

There has never been a study showing introduction of ABS has reduced accidents. In the United States you'd assume that ABS would have reduced the total accident rate since it's now on most new cars. In fact it has not. There is exactly the same accident rate in spite of so many cars having ABS.

People tend to "consume" safety and drive so their driving remains exactly as dangerous.

[taxonomy]

All I am saying, is that when people think their vehicle (2 or 4 wheeled) is capable of magical things, they drive like their vehicle is capable of magical things. Not saying this accident couldn't have been prevented if he did, in fact, have ABS, but riding around like he did without actually checking was pretty dumb.

There has never been a study showing introduction of ABS has reduced accidents. In the United States you'd assume that ABS would have reduced the total accident rate since it's now on most new cars. In fact it has not. There is exactly the same accident rate in spite of so many cars having ABS.

People tend to "consume" safety and drive so their driving remains exactly as dangerous.

[DucDave]

NTSB Says (Full report here...)

BACKGROUND

Antilock brake systems (ABS) have been introduced on many passenger car and light truck make/models in recent years. Brake experts anticipated that the introduction of ABS on passenger vehicles would reduce the number and severity of accidents. A number of statistical analyses of accident databases have been performed during the last three years. These analyses suggest that the introduction of ABS does not seem to have reduced the number of automobile accidents where they were expected to be effective. Kahane stated that involvements in multi-vehicle crashes on wet roads were significantly reduced by 24 percent, and nonfatal crashes by 14 percent (with ABS). However, these reductions were offset by a statistically significant increase in the frequency of single-vehicle, run-off-road crashes (rollovers or impacts with fixed objects), as compared to cars without ABS. Fatal run-off-road crashes were up by 28 percent and nonfatal crashes by 19 percent. It is unknown to what extent, if any, this increase is due to ABS or other causes. It is also unknown to what extent, if any, this increase is due to drivers incorrect usage of ABS or incorrect responses by drivers to their ABS.
In comparison, some benefits were observed for light vehicles other than automobiles (pickup trucks, sport utility vehicles, and vans), equipped with two-wheel ABS instead of the four-wheel ABS used on most automobiles. Two-wheel ABS has been effective in reducing the risk of nonfatal run-off-road crashes for almost every type of light truck. Nonfatal rollovers were reduced by 30 to 40 percent. Side impacts with fixed objects were reduced by 15 to 30 percent. Frontal impacts with fixed objects were reduced by 5 to 20 percent.
In general, ABS appears to be a very promising safety device when evaluated on a test track. Under many pavement conditions, ABS allows the driver to stop a vehicle more rapidly while maintaining steering control, even during extreme panic braking. Therefore, NHTSA wishes to, as rapidly as possible, determine why the real world performance for existing, production ABS is not producing the anticipated effectiveness that has been suggested under test track conditions.

[FirstDuc-1098]

...People tend to "consume" safety and drive so their driving remains exactly as dangerous.

NTSB Says (Full report here...)

[NobodySpecific]

NTSB Says (Full report here...)

So basically it doesn't reduce overall accidents, but ABS seems to keep people from hitting other people. The increase in accidents seems to be primarily single vehicle accidents, which means that as long as I don't drive like an asshole, the roads are a little bit safer (as in, other people are a little less likely to hit me) due to ABS. Sounds like a win to me.

[gregp]

I have to agree with Bergs. I am not a fan of ABS, traction control, or any other unnecessary complex electro-mechanical devices on any of my vehicles. I would not go so far as to say that they have no value. Heck, just try to fix one and you will see exactly how much "value" the parts of the systems have.
As far as this thread goes, well, in our litigious society, lawyers look for any "out", and HD has provided them with one. IMO, this will be settled out of court for an undisclosed amount.

[SRTie4k]

I'll vouch for ABS helping to save my ass in at least one car. But at the same time, I despise the over-active ABS which sometimes kicks in when hitting bumps while braking (I'm looking at you VW). It's very nerve-wracking when you're trying to stop and the car won't let you.

[Harley Davidson]

I think what is being missed has to do with technique. My only knowledge of motorcycle ABS technique is a snippit from a Ducati Panigale video in which Ducati suggests the system allows maximum braking without guesswork by sensing the rear tire lifting??? This implies that one need not limit input pressure.

In any case, technique for maximum braking in automobiles with ABS vs. Non-ABS varies. I think what needs to be determined for the motorcycle is how the owners manual addressed the issue in terms of both how the motorcycle was equipped and recommended technique for braking. If the guy really did think he could use an incorrect technique to stop, was Harley Davidson somehow responsible for this?

[Degsy]

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I have to agree with Bergs. I am not a fan of ABS, traction control, or any other unnecessary complex electro-mechanical devices on any of my vehicles. I would not go so far as to say that they have no value. Heck, just try to fix one and you will see exactly how much "value" the parts of the systems have.
As far as this thread goes, well, in our litigious society, lawyers look for any "out", and HD has provided them with one. IMO, this will be settled out of court for an undisclosed amount.

Doubt it. That would open the floodgates for every non-helmet/half helmet wearing retard to blame a light that isn't there for their brain damage.

[Garandman]

Not in this lifetime. Sorry.

This is the test that convinced me my street bike should have ABS.

http://www.ibmwr.org/prodreview/abstests.html

[SVRACER01]

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This is getting out of hand. Obviously you don't have to worry about floating the rear wheel on road king, but if you lock up the front tire in heavy braking, the front will wash out. That's where the ABS comes in. It makes the bike easier to keep upright thus improving stopping distance by reducing the panic factor and the sliding factor that usually comes with crashing. The rear is the same thing. HD actually had some some good demo videos demonstrating this on wet asphalt.

As for car ABS. I can see both sides. The abs on my car sucks. It comes on way to soon and just seems to be a shitty system made by dodge. I slid through a stop sign at 10mph a few years ago and the abs didn't help 1 iota. I tried stopping and the pedal went crazy. I tried turning....nothing. I will happily chalk up a good chunk of that to pretty worn all seasons but I drove another chysler product and they did the same thing. I slid right past my driveway. I got into a Toyota though, and under the same conditions, had no issues stopping or tuning while stopping. So it really depends on the system I think.

[gregp]

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Doubt it. That would open the floodgates for every non-helmet/half helmet wearing retard to blame a light that isn't there for their brain damage.

...Unless the defense attorney could prove that the condition was pre-existing.

[OreoGaborio]

This is getting out of hand. Obviously you don't have to worry about floating the rear wheel on road king, but if you lock up the front tire in heavy braking, the front will wash out. That's where the ABS comes in. It makes the bike easier to keep upright thus improving stopping distance by reducing the panic factor and the sliding factor that usually comes with crashing. The rear is the same thing. HD actually had some some good demo videos demonstrating this on wet asphalt.

As for car ABS. I can see both sides. The abs on my car sucks. It comes on way to soon and just seems to be a shitty system made by dodge. I slid through a stop sign at 10mph a few years ago and the abs didn't help 1 iota. I tried stopping and the pedal went crazy. I tried turning....nothing. I will happily chalk up a good chunk of that to pretty worn all seasons but I drove another chysler product and they did the same thing. I slid right past my driveway. I got into a Toyota though, and under the same conditions, had no issues stopping or tuning while stopping. So it really depends on the system I think.

Holy crap, Oxx said something smrt.

[Mr. Kurtz]

http://www.sacbee.com/2011/12/20/v-p...vidson-in.html

He said his client turned down a pretrial settlement offer of $900,000, an amount that would have left her with next to nothing after a medical lien, experts' costs and his own fees were deducted.

[OreoGaborio]

wow

[csmutty]

http://www.sacbee.com/2011/12/20/v-p...vidson-in.html

And now they do get nothing...that was smart...

[NobodySpecific]

It really shows that this guy was trying to dig deep. He turned down an impressively generous offer for such a dubious claim. I feel bad for the woman and her family, but it wasn't Harley's fault.

[e30addict]

Wow, $900 grand for beiing a dumbass. What a precedent that could set!

[Mr. Kurtz]

Eh, if the statement is true, the $900K would have covered her immediate costs of the injury and her court case. She obviously thought she deserved more for pain and suffering, continued care, etc.

Luckily...a jury of her peers disagreed. Score one for common sense.

[DucDave]

Holy crap, Oxx said something smrt.

Law of averages Pete, law of averages. Even works in my favor occaisionaly...

[Degsy]

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I was teaching an experienced rider course a couple of years back and in the exercise 'stopping quickly in a curve' a guy on a Road King dropped his bike 5 times. He only had to TOUCH the front brake while slightly leaned at about 10MPH and that front wheel washed out. Big front tire plus 750lb bike = front wheel instability while braking.

[jcrawford]

Good guys win again!

[Wanderer]

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I was teaching an experienced rider course a couple of years back and in the exercise 'stopping quickly in a curve' a guy on a Road King dropped his bike 5 times. He only had to TOUCH the front brake while slightly leaned at about 10MPH and that front wheel washed out. Big front tire plus 750lb bike = front wheel instability while braking.

Utterly agree. My only injury-causing crash was my own fault, straight line braking in the wet. However in the time it took me to as much as touch the front brake I lost all traction on the front, and straight down I went.

I've practiced emergency braking many many times and know the feeling of when 'its about to go!' but in this case it was literally as fast as blinking.

Its in instances like this - where human reactions are not sufficient - that ABS and the like are invaluable.
Bike was a BMW R1200GS with a full tank of gas, panniers with laptop, work clothes etc = lot of weight.