Survey: Tiered Licensing or Self Control

[JettaJayGLS]

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a bit off the beaten path with the gear stuff...but ill only say im hurting no one but myself amd i DO exercise my right to wear what i want when i want while riding.

id love to start a 'gear law' survey but i have a feeling it would be a


thanks for the feedback on licensing tho!!!!!

Yeah, off the path, but it relates. all my backup of why they should make the law is because it will keep those people buying bikes just to show off from not getting a bike.

Last year, If i could have afforded it, I would have bought a liter bike as a first bike. All i could afford was this 87 cbr600. I didn't have any gear, nothing. I look back on that, and think to myself, wow, i never should have been on a bike like that. If they forced me to get gear, I wouldn't have been on the bike.

Luckily after that bike I met a few people on hear, and got easily persuaded into getting another 600 and getting gear.

[kb1]

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a bit off the beaten path with the gear stuff...but ill only say im hurting no one but myself amd i DO exercise my right to wear what i want when i want while riding.

id love to start a 'gear law' survey but i have a feeling it would be a


thanks for the feedback on licensing tho!!!!!

Ok you can do what you want, but if you put your wife/gf on the back and she sees that because you aren't wearing gear she's not going to. She may not understand the consequences of not having that gear on. Personally I always ride with a jacket/gloves/helmet/proper shoes. I won't let my fiance or anybody for that matter on the back of my bike without at least that. I've already explained to her in depth the consequences she could have if we went down and she rashed up her legs (we always wear at least jeans, no shorts whatsoever). She also works in an ER so she knows the consequences.

What bothers me are these young squids with their chickies on the back wearing short shorts, sandals, and a tank top going down the pike or rt 20 at 70mph. They have no idea what they're in for when they're dumbass bf lowsides the bike because some pulls out in front of them.

[FlynGSXR1k]

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a bit off the beaten path with the gear stuff...but ill only say im hurting no one but myself amd i DO exercise my right to wear what i want when i want while riding.

id love to start a 'gear law' survey but i have a feeling it would be a


thanks for the feedback on licensing tho!!!!!

Physically hurting only yourself, probably.

Emotionally hurting those around you?
Financially hurting society, who, if you get injured to a point where you can't take care of yourself, pays for your care (either through your health insurance or social security/state health care system)?

I'm very much pro-choice in terms of gear, but please don't disillusion yourself to think you are the only one affected if you get hurt riding without gear.

noxin,

understood.... again without taking the thread :offtopic: that is a perosnal choice i make and as a responsible citizen i am sure to be financially covered for 'accidents'. ive seen the heated gear threads on here and respectfully dont want this to be a gear thread... i am happy to debate gear in an appropriate thread, via pm or face to face as i think its something that could be debated until the end of time

[rbrais]

I don't really agree with any of the poll options. When you go to get your license, you should have to take a riding test....no temp permit. If you can control the bike, get your license. If you can't, take the training course or come back after you've learned how to ride on your own.

I can't tell you how sketchy the people were when I was taking my riding test. Some could not take off without stalling. One dropped the bike on take-off. And THESE people had permits to go out and ride on the road so that they could get enough experience to pass their riding test. It's kind of like the FAA saying, "Here's a plane now go out and practice and we"ll see if you can actually fly in a couple of weeks. Just remember to watch out for tall buildings and power lines, oh and be careful with your landings; they can hurt if you're not careful."

We all had to take a riding test before getting a license, why not do it right away and get it over with instead of letting a bunch of people have permits when they can't even ride a bike?

[FlynGSXR1k]

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I don't really agree with any of the poll options. When you go to get your license, you should have to take a riding test....no temp permit. If you can control the bike, get your license. If you can't, take the training course or come back after you've learned how to ride on your own.

I can't tell you how sketchy the people were when I was taking my riding test. Some could not take off without stalling. One dropped the bike on take-off. And THESE people had permits to go out and ride on the road so that they could get enough experience to pass their riding test. It's kind of like the FAA saying, "Here's a plane now go out and practice and we"ll see if you can actually fly in a couple of weeks. Just remember to watch out for tall buildings and power lines, oh and be careful with your landings; they can hurt if you're not careful."

We all had to take a riding test before getting a license, why not do it right away and get it over with instead of letting a bunch of people have permits when they can't even ride a bike?

it is scary to see who they give licenses/permits to. excluding the previous comment about what happens when we force the unwilling to take a safety course, i think that may be one of the better options... its staffed by an independent firm (msf) and state approved.

it does put a greater deal of stress on the instructor to 'babysit' the unwilling tho.... still i think is a far better option than 'test and run..now have fun'

[Just_Jeff]

there is no answer that will work for all levels of the issue here.
At least a tiered lic system give a rider some time. You get lic and a cc/RWHP restriction for a year then a 2nd tier, then a third and final no limits one.
Not that you suddenly have the skill to get a Busa after 2 years anymore than at 21 you will drink responsible. No way to test for that, Hell you don't even have to prove you even rode a bike before you could move up. But since it involves the state there will be fees at each level involved so at least it removes the wanna be poser macho types. Not only going to affect the young kids getting liter + bikes. Also going to keep midlife crisis man from getting a 800 lb boheameth bike @ 40 for his first.

Again I don't know the right answer.
I do know that there is no way on this planet I can agree with the current system that allowed a 18 year old kid ( ie my son) to purchase a liter bike, register it, insure it and not even have to have a motorcycle endorsed lic. I would not agree to that system even if it was a 250cc.

[-jro-]

But I do think a dealership should use some sense down to the sales/managerial level if they see a 16 year old trying to buy a Busa or 1000rr as a first bike to step up and do the right thing. Offer the kid discounts on better bikes and things of that nature, don't sign the papers and just show him the door.

what about the 46 year old who's never ridden before trying to buy a busa or 1000rr? Age has nothing to do with. Shit, sometimes experience has nothing to do with it either. People who ride like hooligans and get smoked come from a variety of backgrounds. People who ride irresponsibly and have a "need for speed" and toss away their lives can be 16 or 46, green or a veteran rider. Its about self control in the end, who has it and who doesn't.

[FlynGSXR1k]

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there is no answer that will work for all levels of the issue here.
At least a tiered lic system give a rider some time. You get lic and a cc/RWHP restriction for a year then a 2nd tier, then a third and final no limits one.
Not that you suddenly have the skill to get a Busa after 2 years anymore than at 21 you will drink responsible. No way to test for that, Hell you don't even have to prove you even rode a bike before you could move up. But since it involves the state there will be fees at each level involved so at least it removes the wanna be poser macho types. Not only going to affect the young kids getting liter + bikes. Also going to keep midlife crisis man from getting a 800 lb boheameth bike @ 40 for his first.

Again I don't know the right answer.
I do know that there is no way on this planet I can agree with the current system that allowed a 18 year old kid ( ie my son) to purchase a liter bike, register it, insure it and not even have to have a motorcycle endorsed lic. I would not agree to that system even if it was a 250cc.

jeff,

now you've got me thinking **steam from ears**

if an unlicensed 16 year old kid were to walk in a CAR dealership using a non-driver ID to obtain financing (or say he had cash for this example).... i am willing to bet they would let the kid drive off with it... ive only had to show my license for test driving or financing.

ill call around this weekend and investigate...great point!

[FlynGSXR1k]

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there is no answer that will work for all levels of the issue here.
At least a tiered lic system give a rider some time. You get lic and a cc/RWHP restriction for a year then a 2nd tier, then a third and final no limits one.
Not that you suddenly have the skill to get a Busa after 2 years anymore than at 21 you will drink responsible. No way to test for that, Hell you don't even have to prove you even rode a bike before you could move up. But since it involves the state there will be fees at each level involved so at least it removes the wanna be poser macho types. Not only going to affect the young kids getting liter + bikes. Also going to keep midlife crisis man from getting a 800 lb boheameth bike @ 40 for his first.

Again I don't know the right answer.
I do know that there is no way on this planet I can agree with the current system that allowed a 18 year old kid ( ie my son) to purchase a liter bike, register it, insure it and not even have to have a motorcycle endorsed lic. I would not agree to that system even if it was a 250cc.

jeff,

now you've got me thinking **steam from ears**

if an unlicensed 16 year old kid were to walk in a CAR dealership using a non-driver ID to obtain financing (or say he had cash for this example).... i am willing to bet they would let the kid drive off with it... ive only had to show my license for test driving or financing.

ill call around this weekend and investigate...great point!

[importcustomx]

Tiered is the way to go..i think you should have to earn each license... i wish drivers license were just like a pilot license when you want to get one...it takes a long time and you have to be educated.

[FlynGSXR1k]

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in Ontario they have adopted the following system:

Graduated Licensing for Motorcycle Riders

If you're a new driver applying for your first licence to ride a motorcycle, you'll need to enter Ontario's graduated licensing system. That means you'll earn full driving privileges in two stages.
Class M1

New motorcycle riders with a Class M1 licence learn to ride under these four conditions:

* your blood alcohol level must be zero;
* you must ride only during daylight hours (1/2 hour before sunrise to 1/2 hour after sunset);
* you must not ride on highways with speed limits of more than 80 km/h except highways 11, 17, 61, 69, 71, 101, 102, 144, 655;
* you cannot carry passengers.

After you pass a motorcycle knowledge test, you will get a Class M1 licence and an information package for new riders. You must spend a minimum of 60 days with a Class M1 licence, which is valid for 90 days.

Motorcycle riders who successfully complete an approved motorcycle safety course that includes a road test with an M1 licence are exempt from taking the ministry's M1 road test and can move to an M2 licence after 60 days. If you complete an approved safety course in either level, you can reduce the time that you must hold an M2 licence from 22 to 18 months. While the motorcycle safety course certificate is valid for two years from its issue date, it may only be used for the M1 road test exemption within six months of its issue date.

See also: Motorcycle Safety Course Providers

With a Class M1 licence, an operator can drive a moped, limited-speed motorcycle and a motorcycle.
Class M2

You must pass an M1 road test or complete an approved motorcycle safety course before receiving a Class M2 licence. You must have a Class M2 licence for a minimum of 22 months. If you complete an approved motorcycle safety course, you may reduce this time requirement by four months. With an M2 licence, you gain more privileges - you may ride at night and on any road. However, at this level:

* your blood alcohol level must be zero;
* you will be eligible to take a Class M road test after you have completed the time required with an M2 licence;
* you must pass this test to get a Class M licence.

Note: Class M2 and Class M licence holders may also drive Class G vehicles under the conditions that apply to a Class G1 licence holder.

With a Class M2 licence, the operator can drive a moped, limited-speed motorcycle and a motorcycle.

Graduated Licensing applies to drivers of limited-speed motorcycles and mopeds

A restricted class M licence is for drivers who operate a limited-speed motorcycle or moped. A limited-speed motorcycle is a motorcycle that has a maximum speed of 70 km/h. Applicants for the restricted class M licence are required to take both M1 and M2 road tests.

Like standard motorcycle drivers, new drivers applying for their limited-speed motorcycle or moped licence will enter Ontario's graduated licensing system. You must be at least 16 years of age and pass a vision test and a test of your knowledge of the rules of the road and traffic signs. After you pass these tests, you will enter Level One and get an M1 licence. You must pass two road tests to become fully licensed on a limited-speed motorcycle or moped. Passing the first road test lets you move to Level Two (class M2 with L condition). Passing the second road test gives you restricted class M driving privileges. With this licence, you can drive mopeds and limited-speed motorcycles only; you will not be able to operate a full-powered motorcycle.

The ministry has approved motor scooter training courses. These courses are offered by motorcycle safety associations/colleges and these courses include road testing. Motorcycle safety associations/colleges may also offer motor scooter training courses without road testing. You may contact them directly to see what courses are offered.

We would encourage you to check this website for information on motor scooter training courses.

See also: Licensing for Operators of Motor Scooters and Mopeds

which reminds me.. part of the Euro graduated license is a limit on horsepower

interesting and (aparently) effective system. are there any stats as to a drop in accidents? without making this a truly political thread, i have a hard time seeing that mich regulation passing in the states and i as a taxpayer certainly have no interest in paying for the implementation or enforcement of that with my money??

[kb1]

what about the 46 year old who's never ridden before trying to buy a busa or 1000rr? Age has nothing to do with. Shit, sometimes experience has nothing to do with it either. People who ride like hooligans and get smoked come from a variety of backgrounds. People who ride irresponsibly and have a "need for speed" and toss away their lives can be 16 or 46, green or a veteran rider. Its about self control in the end, who has it and who doesn't.

I didn't really mean to speak like that I was just using a 16 year old as an example because it's an obvious red flag to the dealership. I agree with your point and that was my original statement, it's all about self control and doing it at the right place.

[royal690]

Isn't most of Europe tiered for both cars and bikes? I remember being a France a few years ago, and most of the kids around town had scooters because they weren't old enough to get their auto or moto license. This seems like a good starting point, but is definitely not the answer.

I also think the MSF course should be mandatory before anyone gets their license. While it may seem simple, just learning the basics of how to properly operate a motorcycle; things like proper throttle control, braking tech, looking through corners, emergency braking, what to do if you lock a wheel.... are all good things to learn before you hit the roads.

Gear is definitely a personal choice, I prefer to ride with it and other don't. I see it like wearing my seatbelt in a car, I've crashed enough cars to know I should probably buckle up haha

[Just_Jeff]

I was steaming as well at the time, From CT DMV site

Requirements to Register a Motorcycle

To determine if your vehicle meets requirements for motorcycle registration, please see important information.

If the motorcycle is purchased brand new, please follow the same requirements as the Registration of a New Vehicle.

If the motorcycle is purchased as used, or previously registered out of state, you will need to present the following documents to your local DMV full service or satellite office to apply for a registration:

* The Certificate of Title showing assignment of ownership and indicating release of all liens (if any). A Title is not required on motorcycles manufactured prior to 1981.
* Bill of Sale (PDF 193K)
* A Vehicle Identification Number (VIN) verification is required when registering your out of state motorcycle. Please bring your motorcycle, registration and driver's license to your local Full Service DMV Branch Office, with the exception of the Norwalk Office. The VIN verification will be completed and a report will be given to you to present for registration.
* Your current Connecticut Insurance Identification Card, which can be obtained from your insurance company. The insurance card must be in the name of registered owner(s). If the motorcycle is being leased, the insurance card may be in the name of the lessee.
* Application for Registration and Certificate of Title (form H-13).
* Identification will be required to register a motorcycle. Please see list of Acceptable Forms of Identification.

Note: Motorcycles cannot be registered if delinquent property tax or parking tickets are owed or if the registrant has had their registration privilege suspended.

I failed to understand and still don't that having a valid Car license means you can register a motorcycle. If you have a motorcycle only lic you are NOT allowed to register a car.

They care that you can drive a car
They care that you are insured
They care if the bike was stolen
They REALLY care if you owe the government $
Somehow it matters if your "car' driver lic is suspended

the could care less if you had never even sat on anything with two wheels prior to registering one

[KawiSmurf]

I think my primary reason for being interested in a tier-based licensing program is that the manufacturers will then have an incentive to import their small displacement machines that I love so much. I really see myself having a blast on a YZF-125R, or a street-legal RS125. Maybe I'm alone in that regard, and maybe that's a bit of a selfish reason. But I also do have a problem with inexperienced riders jumping on the big guns to learn how to ride, so there's some merit to my vote.

[snwbrdr435]

Look at Finland and Germany, when you go to get your drivers license. You have to pass various classes and driving courses. It is way to easy to just go out and get your permit/ drivers license. I mean my road test was a joke i drove down the street parked and switched spots. The girl who got in after me failed at doing a 3 point turn 3 times and still passed. Im with Jay on the gear argument. Especially for passengers, was recently witness to a lowside and if we hadn't made the girl wear a jacket etc she would have been seriously injured. As far as liter bikes go, there is no way to really stop people from buying them. Dealerships across the country are starving, sales suck. If they can sell a bike they are going to. I don't blame them they need money. Maybe the should be a mileage/timeframe to upgrade to a bigger bike. Then if you really are a good responsible rider and want a bigger bike sooner, you can take a course. Problem with that is killing off business at the dealerships.

Sorry for the wall of text

[FlynGSXR1k]

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I was steaming as well at the time, From CT DMV site

Requirements to Register a Motorcycle

To determine if your vehicle meets requirements for motorcycle registration, please see important information.

If the motorcycle is purchased brand new, please follow the same requirements as the Registration of a New Vehicle.

If the motorcycle is purchased as used, or previously registered out of state, you will need to present the following documents to your local DMV full service or satellite office to apply for a registration:

* The Certificate of Title showing assignment of ownership and indicating release of all liens (if any). A Title is not required on motorcycles manufactured prior to 1981.
* Bill of Sale (PDF 193K)
* A Vehicle Identification Number (VIN) verification is required when registering your out of state motorcycle. Please bring your motorcycle, registration and driver's license to your local Full Service DMV Branch Office, with the exception of the Norwalk Office. The VIN verification will be completed and a report will be given to you to present for registration.
* Your current Connecticut Insurance Identification Card, which can be obtained from your insurance company. The insurance card must be in the name of registered owner(s). If the motorcycle is being leased, the insurance card may be in the name of the lessee.
* Application for Registration and Certificate of Title (form H-13).
* Identification will be required to register a motorcycle. Please see list of Acceptable Forms of Identification.

Note: Motorcycles cannot be registered if delinquent property tax or parking tickets are owed or if the registrant has had their registration privilege suspended.

I failed to understand and still don't that having a valid Car license means you can register a motorcycle. If you have a motorcycle only lic you are NOT allowed to register a car.

They care that you can drive a car
They care that you are insured
They care if the bike was stolen
They REALLY care if you owe the government $
Somehow it matters if your "car' driver lic is suspended

the could care less if you had never even sat on anything with two wheels prior to registering one

lol sadly i have a feeling this is a similar case in most states.

[Wanderer]

I grew up with tiered licencing, then scootled over here to the USA to a very different system. Is either better than the other? I'm not really sure i'm qualified to make that call.

I *do* think that there is often a disconnect between peoples expectation of what fast is. Mash the gas pedal in a non-sportscar, and you're going to accelerate at a decent clip, but not something that you'll be startled by. Lets face, it, you've been a passenger in cars for years - you know whats going to happen.

So you hop on some modern RR - permit in hand. The same WOT antics will see you dealing with an entirely different order of performance - and concequence. Hell, the same on my old CB750 would propel me faster than any car that I'd ever driven before or since.

Add in the pretty permanant concequences that mistakes tend to entail in riding, and you have a decent recipie for people getting in over their heads with alarming ease.

Is tiered licencing the answer? Well, I'm not sure. Yes, I went through it in the UK - fairly long and laborious. Would the same mechanism translate directly to here? Quite probably not, given the fundamentally differing attitudes and viewpoints.

However, I *do* firmly support potential rider education as much as possible - the mantra of ATTGATT cant really be repeated often enough, and am 110% in favour of MSF or other training courses as an aid for those who do want to learn to further their abilities.

Our sport is dangerous, inherently. It is only prudent to seek to limit the danger you expose yourself to, but given the nature - it will never be safe. While I dont feel the dealer is at fault for suggesting a RR for a new rider - or a rider whose history he/she does not know - somewhere, personal responsibility needs to rear its head, and that sadly is not something you can legislate into play.

Foolish people will do foolish things, regardless of your best intentions. That there are frameworks avalible to help that are avalible for those who wish to avail themselves of them, is probably the best compromise we're going to manage.

(edit - apologies for spelling, my checker is apparently broken)

[FlynGSXR1k]

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interesting and (aparently) effective system. are there any stats as to a drop in accidents? without making this a truly political thread, i have a hard time seeing that mich regulation passing in the states and i as a taxpayer certainly have no interest in paying for the implementation or enforcement of that with my money??

hard to say, I suppose you could do a search for crash stats and make a determination for yourself.

as a side note I find it interesting that you are concerned (it seems) with motorcycle safety.. but when it comes time to pay.. well that is something different.

classic "I want better roads / schools / social services, but I don't want to pay for them". In the end it's one or the other don't you think?

can't really have it both ways.

if you think it's a free country and people can do as they please, that's fine, (and I really don't mind what other people do, as long as it doesn't impact me) then have down payment, will ride... get anything you like, go kill or maim yourself, not my problem.

if, on the other hand, you think the general population is too dim to look out for themselves (take seat belts for example, is there a compelling reason not to wear them? no, and yet we need a law & "click it or ticket" campaign) then legislation is required. that costs time and money. it could be user pay, so the few who want to ride pay a lot, or it could be spread across the whole population.

first of all... if you re-read the opener to the survey, the purpose is to generate feedback for an article i am preparing for a motorcycle column, so understand part of what im doing is playing devils advocate with a touch of personal insight.

motorcycle safety is one thing, how we achieve it is another. i personally (advocate aside) feel 'the man' has no place in mu life except for our defense and civil protection so your damned right i dont wamt to pay for it via govt channels. i do think there are more effective ways to educate people and make it a safer sport with uncle sam or uncle canada.

for the record, i dont wear my seat belt or helmet unless im in a state or country that the feel its necessary to charge the residents to enforce infrindgement on personal choice.

regarding the system you described... it *might* work, again personal opinion i would probaly buy into it if it were not 'state' sponsored but rather organized by independent organizations and adopted as approved by the state

[akira700]

At first my knee jerk reaction is to say
Let Darwin's Theory of Evolution take effect here and let
those who are dumb and incapable die and be removed from the gene pool!
Most of the time they are just a danger to themselves, right?

The only trouble with this is the fact that these folks
raise the cost of health insurance for the rest of us who ride safe.

Take the no helmet law for instance. That's cool to have the freedom to ride without a helmet but when you get brain damage and the hospital has to keep you on life support that COSTS us all something.

So maybe everyone can do what they want, but dont expect to have any coverage if you get seriously hurt riding a GSXR 1000 with one year under your belt.

[Kitt]

I used to try to suggest people work their way up in bike size/performance... most people do whatever they want anyway so I gave up... Some get the big bike and use 20% of what it is capable of and never crash - who cares if they wasted their $...

I had a liter bike after just a few years of riding and 2 years off... handled it ok - but it probably was dumb in other people's opinions.

I voted let em do what they want... this is america - stop trying to force people to make good decisions!

[FlynGSXR1k]

Giles,

Thanks for that first person insight. As much time as I've spent in Europe and India the 'cross-culture' factor never crossed my mind, and I think you're dead on.... it would never work in the US as-it-is over there.

With the exception of the ATGATT, I really like this!!

I grew up with tiered licencing, then scootled over here to the USA to a very different system. Is either better than the other? I'm not really sure i'm qualified to make that call.

I *do* think that there is often a disconnect between peoples expectation of what fast is. Mash the gas pedal in a non-sportscar, and you're going to accelerate at a decent clip, but not something that you'll be startled by. Lets face, it, you've been a passenger in cars for years - you know whats going to happen.

So you hop on some modern RR - permit in hand. The same WOT antics will see you dealing with an entirely different order of performance - and concequence. Hell, the same on my old CB750 would propel me faster than any car that I'd ever driven before or since.

Add in the pretty permanant concequences that mistakes tend to entail in riding, and you have a decent recipie for people getting in over their heads with alarming ease.

Is tiered licencing the answer? Well, I'm not sure. Yes, I went through it in the UK - fairly long and laborious. Would the same mechanism translate directly to here? Quite probably not, given the fundamentally differing attitudes and viewpoints.

However, I *do* firmly support potential rider education as much as possible - the mantra of ATTGATT cant really be repeated often enough, and am 110% in favour of MSF or other training courses as an aid for those who do want to learn to further their abilities.

Our sport is dangerous, inherently. It is only prudent to seek to limit the danger you expose yourself to, but given the nature - it will never be safe. While I dont feel the dealer is at fault for suggesting a RR for a new rider - or a rider whose history he/she does not know - somewhere, personal responsibility needs to rear its head, and that sadly is not something you can legislate into play.

Foolish people will do foolish things, regardless of your best intentions. That there are frameworks avalible to help that are avalible for those who wish to avail themselves of them, is probably the best compromise we're going to manage.

(edit - apologies for spelling, my checker is apparently broken)

[FlynGSXR1k]

hmm.. don't you know better? haven't you been properly educated?
obviously you are working from a double standard here? or am I missing your point?



so something run by private enterprise like oh... I dunno... the health care system?


I get the impression you are

1. freedom of choice
2. anti government
3. want change
4. as long as it's free

I will be very interested to read your conclusions... I think you are missing large pieces of the puzzle.

Freedom of choice - absolutely
anti-government (controlling my life) - absolutely
want change - sure, but realistically we wont see it overnight
free? sir.. nothing in this world is free. its a matter of putting cash in the right hands to make sure it is spent wisely -

....and i just dont think the government (state) is qualified to manage motorcycle 'standards' of safety - enforcement - sure... but let the experts develop the standards.

I'll be sure to send you the a link to the project once it is finished

[kb1]

I grew up with tiered licencing, then scootled over here to the USA to a very different system. Is either better than the other? I'm not really sure i'm qualified to make that call.

I *do* think that there is often a disconnect between peoples expectation of what fast is. Mash the gas pedal in a non-sportscar, and you're going to accelerate at a decent clip, but not something that you'll be startled by. Lets face, it, you've been a passenger in cars for years - you know whats going to happen.

So you hop on some modern RR - permit in hand. The same WOT antics will see you dealing with an entirely different order of performance - and concequence. Hell, the same on my old CB750 would propel me faster than any car that I'd ever driven before or since.

Add in the pretty permanant concequences that mistakes tend to entail in riding, and you have a decent recipie for people getting in over their heads with alarming ease.

Is tiered licencing the answer? Well, I'm not sure. Yes, I went through it in the UK - fairly long and laborious. Would the same mechanism translate directly to here? Quite probably not, given the fundamentally differing attitudes and viewpoints.

However, I *do* firmly support potential rider education as much as possible - the mantra of ATTGATT cant really be repeated often enough, and am 110% in favour of MSF or other training courses as an aid for those who do want to learn to further their abilities.

Our sport is dangerous, inherently. It is only prudent to seek to limit the danger you expose yourself to, but given the nature - it will never be safe. While I dont feel the dealer is at fault for suggesting a RR for a new rider - or a rider whose history he/she does not know - somewhere, personal responsibility needs to rear its head, and that sadly is not something you can legislate into play.

Foolish people will do foolish things, regardless of your best intentions. That there are frameworks avalible to help that are avalible for those who wish to avail themselves of them, is probably the best compromise we're going to manage.

(edit - apologies for spelling, my checker is apparently broken)

Very very well said well written response to you!

[R1]

I grew up with tiered licencing, then scootled over here to the USA to a very different system. Is either better than the other? I'm not really sure i'm qualified to make that call.

I *do* think that there is often a disconnect between peoples expectation of what fast is. Mash the gas pedal in a non-sportscar, and you're going to accelerate at a decent clip, but not something that you'll be startled by. Lets face, it, you've been a passenger in cars for years - you know whats going to happen.

So you hop on some modern RR - permit in hand. The same WOT antics will see you dealing with an entirely different order of performance - and concequence. Hell, the same on my old CB750 would propel me faster than any car that I'd ever driven before or since.

Add in the pretty permanant concequences that mistakes tend to entail in riding, and you have a decent recipie for people getting in over their heads with alarming ease.

Is tiered licencing the answer? Well, I'm not sure. Yes, I went through it in the UK - fairly long and laborious. Would the same mechanism translate directly to here? Quite probably not, given the fundamentally differing attitudes and viewpoints.

However, I *do* firmly support potential rider education as much as possible - the mantra of ATTGATT cant really be repeated often enough, and am 110% in favour of MSF or other training courses as an aid for those who do want to learn to further their abilities.

Our sport is dangerous, inherently. It is only prudent to seek to limit the danger you expose yourself to, but given the nature - it will never be safe. While I dont feel the dealer is at fault for suggesting a RR for a new rider - or a rider whose history he/she does not know - somewhere, personal responsibility needs to rear its head, and that sadly is not something you can legislate into play.

Foolish people will do foolish things, regardless of your best intentions. That there are frameworks avalible to help that are avalible for those who wish to avail themselves of them, is probably the best compromise we're going to manage.

(edit - apologies for spelling, my checker is apparently broken)

I will have to agree 100% percent on this one

now go back to britain and ride your scooter

you can leave the 1200 here at my house ill take really good care of it.

just leave the keys