VT Politics at work again.

[smoothwaterman]

http://www.amadirectlink.com/legislt...ficials/?lvl=L

Select Vermont - go to Legislative Action Alert

Apparently the rep's from the south end are trying to put an end to the rides, after the whole jamaica incident. Politics suck.

pb.

[sandman]

thanks for the link.

i just sent them "the legsistraitors" a email

[benVFR]

After discussing this with Vermont relatives it is real hard for me to oppose this. If there are enough locals in a particular area who support massive dirtbike events, etc.. then they'll be allowed in those towns. If a particular town doesn't want that kind of stuff happening in their town that is their right. The core issue is whether the people of an area can keep control of their town & land from out of staters who are coming in.

Guess it depends on the area... my parents have a house up there (no where near jamaica but in VT) and there is a big problem with illegal ATV, dirtbike, and snowmobile use on the property despite it being posted all over the place that it's private property and none of that stuff is allowed. People who get pissed at their land being used/abused against their wishes are always going to vote for things like this when they get pissed off enough. The ATV people have even cut down trees on the property and cut fences to get through.

If we continue to piss off locals by going 100+ on Rt. 100 in large groups and other stupid stuff it is only a matter of time before they start trying to pass new laws and/or fund extra enforcement to stop us too.

[highsider]

The link didn't work for me, but - if this is that legislation against group rides, its going nowhere. Our local car club (www.sccv.org) posted something about it on their forum, and pretty much everyone e-mailed their local reps, who all said they were voting against it, and that it had very little, localized support.

[benVFR]

AMA hides the full text of the bill...

Full Text of Bill

I don't see that as a big issue. For an informal group ride like we do, where we specifically deny the ride is sponsored, organized, or directed by NESR, they don't have anything against us.

The Red Fox Turkey Run or whatever it was called was totally different.. the club had taken dues to pay for the event AFAIK, had cue sheets, had laid the route out beforehand, etc.. For such a big organized event it does not seem ridiculous to expect to work with the town, get a permit, and involve the local police to ensure that the event stays safe and legal. ISTR they had something like a hundred riders too.

You already have to jump through all these hoops to run a bicycle race or big organized ride, a motorcycle group can handle it too. If you fuck up and and the town gets pissed, they stop your event. Our club lost it's bicycle race this year out in Harvard, MA due to safety concerns I believe. (Bad roads, etc..) Now we get to start trying to get a good relationship going with a different town and find a safe route. It is just a fact of life. If the big dirtbike clubs in New England want to run huge events, they are going to have to get organized and purchase their own land. New England Mountain bike Association was able to do that to save a great parcel of land. Motorcycle/dirtbike riders throw around a huge amount of money compared to bicyclists, they ought to be able to buy some land as a group.

If the goal of the event is to stay within the law this will not be a problem, if the goal of the event is to flagrantly break the law in an organized fashion than you deserve to get in trouble and the town has every right to want to restrict use.

The bill specifically states that the town has to go through the state government to require a permit unless the event takes place on the Class 4 Town roads and trails... the ones the state doesn't help pay for. Which probably also clears any sportbike ride.

I would still seriously expect any small indiscrete dirt/street even to fall way under the radar and never have this enforced on them.

[Nikon]

i rarely ride with more than a couple of people but there are a couple of rides that include more than that and it would suck if this passes.

I wonder if you have, say, a group of30 people broken down by time intervals going out in groups of 5 or so. That's not more than 7 bikes riding together...correct?

[benVFR]

Yah Nikon, I think your reading of it is correct.

The clubs seem to be reading this as ANY time you go for a ride/drive with your friends you need a permit. They are blowing it way out of proportion.

e.x. someone thought they need a permit to drive to the track together, for every town they go through. That's not an organized event under the definition in the bill.

Doesn't sound like it will pass anyway though, or it will be changed a lot.

The sport car club seems to have gotten and posted lots of responses from legislators.

[odduc]

if the goal of the event is to flagrantly break the law in an organized fashion than you deserve to get in trouble

Name ONE organized group with this goal in mind. C'mon..........

[benVFR]

Every one I've ever been on or organized myself!

It's just BS lip service to say the laws aren't going to get broken... I've NEVER been on a ride that obeyed all speed limits, didn't pass illegally, never cut any cars off, etc.. most of the rides have had hundreds of violations.

I am fine with that, but I am also fine with the understanding that such behavior needs to be done in a quiet fashion.

If we start making fliers with route sheets of all our favorite roads and mailing them out to everyone in the "club" and asking for dues/donations to go on the ride, we sure as hell should expect trouble. If you use the Turkey Run as an example of an organized ride, NESR has never had an organized ride.

[highsider]

Originally posted by benVFR
Yah Nikon, I think your reading of it is correct.

The clubs seem to be reading this as ANY time you go for a ride/drive with your friends you need a permit. They are blowing it way out of proportion.

e.x. someone thought they need a permit to drive to the track together, for every town they go through. That's not an organized event under the definition in the bill.

Doesn't sound like it will pass anyway though, or it will be changed a lot.

The sport car club seems to have gotten and posted lots of responses from legislators.

Yup, this is the same bill the Sports Car Club of Vermont was worried about.

It'll never pass. Its a bunch of BS proposed by two or three middle of nowhere towns, and it is totally opposed by pretty much the rest of the state.

[odduc]

It's just BS lip service to say the laws aren't going to get broken

OK, I'll give you that, Ben. However, I think that of all the organized rides I have been on, it has never been the intention of anyone involved to attract too much undue attention or piss off the locals. We all know the kind of trouble that will bring.

[sandman]

this has nothing to do with private property. it has to do with riding past your house on a town road on registered motorcycle. the event did cross private property and they had written permission from all the land owners.

oh and as i recall it's been going on for 20 years.

Originally posted by benVFR
After discussing this with Vermont relatives it is real hard for me to oppose this. If there are enough locals in a particular area who support massive dirtbike events, etc.. then they'll be allowed in those towns. If a particular town doesn't want that kind of stuff happening in their town that is their right. The core issue is whether the people of an area can keep control of their town & land from out of staters who are coming in.

Guess it depends on the area... my parents have a house up there (no where near jamaica but in VT) and there is a big problem with illegal ATV, dirtbike, and snowmobile use on the property despite it being posted all over the place that it's private property and none of that stuff is allowed. People who get pissed at their land being used/abused against their wishes are always going to vote for things like this when they get pissed off enough. The ATV people have even cut down trees on the property and cut fences to get through.

If we continue to piss off locals by going 100+ on Rt. 100 in large groups and other stupid stuff it is only a matter of time before they start trying to pass new laws and/or fund extra enforcement to stop us too.

[benVFR]

Originally posted by sandman
this has nothing to do with private property. it has to do with riding past your house on a town road on registered motorcycle. the event did cross private property and they had written permission from all the land owners.

oh and as i recall it's been going on for 20 years.

My note on private property is that once people are pissed about trespass on private property they are also much more likely to apply for pressure for a law like this.

20 years is exactly what I'm talking about... if this event has gone on every year for 20 years, is advertised, attracts a ton of people, etc.. it is definitely "organized" enough to probably need a permit and oversight. I'd bet the town has grown in the past 20 years, just cause it worked 20 years ago doesn't mean it still works.

A big part of the issue is registration fees, etc.. do not help pay for maintenance of class 4 roads. Especially out of state registration fees.

[richw]

All liberals went to the

"lenin guide to incrementalism new school"

each little law a little uncomfortable as they chip away at your rights
just a little restriction here or there for the common good

Common good as defined by the self appointed pin heads.

If a road or trail is on a geological survey map and you have a legal vehicle you have every right to use that road. Even if you are to be followed by 300 of your closest friends

I don't like the golfers speeding passed my door on the way to the golf club but its their right and I defend it

Don't let these petty beurocrats bully you . They want to feel their private parts swell when people have to come and beg permission to excersise their rights as citizens.

When these old liberal farts were hippy youngsters the old conservative Vermont citizens defended their right to be hippy assholes.

[highsider]

Originally posted by richw
All liberals went to the

"lenin guide to incrementalism new school"

each little law a little uncomfortable as they chip away at your rights
just a little restriction here or there for the common good

Common good as defined by the self appointed pin heads.

If a road or trail is on a geological survey map and you have a legal vehicle you have every right to use that road. Even if you are to be followed by 300 of your closest friends

I don't like the golfers speeding passed my door on the way to the golf club but its their right and I defend it

Don't let these petty beurocrats bully you . They want to feel their private parts swell when people have to come and beg permission to excersise their rights as citizens.

When these old liberal farts were hippy youngsters the old conservative Vermont citizens defended their right to be hippy assholes.

Once again, I repeat: The vast majority of local representatives, who are MOSTLY Democrats, oppose this bill, and its NOT AT ALL likely to pass.

[benVFR]

I know it is way hard to grasp but let the locals decide...

If they want to decide to ban these events it should be in their power...

It seems like a much more CONSERVATIVE thing for them to be doing than Liberal. The Liberal way would be to let the state or federal government decide what they can and cannot permit in their town.

(YES I know it sounds like they mostly don't want this law.)

[The Wreck]

The bottom line is that large group rides in gerneral (more than four by my definition, but that's just me) are not a good idea. Let's face it, if twenty sportbikes went ripping by your house at 100+ mph, you'd be pissed off too. Unfortunately too many of us are oblivious to the fact that there are stretches of these roads that are populated and have campgrounds/beaches on them. I don't mean to sound high and mighty here but when my wingman and I head up to VT (admittedly to commit felony speeding) we pay close attention to where we are and what's around us before we open it up. I've even been toying with the idea of putting my stock pipe back on to keep the niose level down. But at least I don't run a D&D!