MSF experienced rider course

[evile]

I just went to sign up for this and to my complete amazement there were 3 spots available for this week! So I jumped on it.

The rain must have scared people away...

[OreoGaborio]

werd, do it up. i almost did this but people on here convinced me to do a track day instead.... now i'm addicted... they're evil i tell you... evil!

welcome to the forum btw

[Rhonda66]

My husband took the first experienced rider course of the year at Ironstone in Acton - he was the only sportbike in a full class, but he said that he was glad he took it...

[old timer]

Info...???

[evile]

That's where I'm going- Ironstone in Acton. I work about 1/2 mile up the street so it's fairly convenient. Hopefully I'm not the only sportbike there!

Took the beginner course with the same folks last year -very informative and entertaining. Although I was a little disapointed that everyone got their endorsement after the class -there were a couple of riders who could barely keep the bike upright

[Karaya One]

You'll get more of of the ERC than a track day.

[Manny]

What type of stuff do they cover? Is it on the street or a lot like the basic class. Any other info about this type of class?

[benVFR]

It's almost the exact same thing as the beginner course crammed into a shorter period, and using your bike instead of their bike.

If you act like an idiot on the street you will be re-scared in the classroom section and ride smarter for a while.

If you're deficient in really slow speed maneuvers you'll get a refresher on low speed stuff.

That's about it unless Ironstone is using the "new" curriculum this year. They were not using it last year.

I was actually really disappointed in the content of the course, and the attitude & level of professional behavior from the instructors last year when I took it with ironstone. (After being impressed in 2001 by their beginners course)

Be prepared to find some of the exercises stupid easy on a sportbike, and some of them very hard, and the instructors won't necessarily know the nuances of a sportbike and how to overcome it's limitations at low speed. Sportbikes suck compared to standards & cruisers at parking lot speeds mostly due to steering lock. (IMHO)

To me the class is there to try and rope in people who have too much pride to take the beginner class. E.x. all those guys buying harleys at 50 who say they rode a dirtbike 3 times in 1965 so they have no need for the beginner class. Or my next door neighbor who bought a harley and rode it all last year without taking the class, I told him all summer to take MSF, he said he didn't need it, then he dumped it after locking up the rear brake on main street, broke his wrist, and started saying he needed to take it. But of course since he rode last year he is experienced and the beginner course is beyond him.

[Karaya One]

Nine years as an instructor and do NOT take the post above mine to heart.

You can get a lot out of the ERC, and every level of rider will benefit.

The MSF does not have a "scare" program. Not in my years of teaching. And having gotten my start working for Joe back in 1996, I don't think he has one either.

You will get as much out of the class as you put into it. Having good instructors helps a great deal, but the type of bike you ride makes ZERO difference. Physics does not care if its a sportbike or a cruiser.

The new ERC builds upon the new BRC, and adds speed along with a focus on teaching advanced corning techniques.

A trackday is just speed without direction. An ERC helps to improve your speed using direction. Both have you using your own bike.

An ERC is the best place to start for building upon your current knowledge and helping you advance to the next level. All a trackday does is have you ride around all day long really fast - but without a plan will you actually learn as much as you think?

I have been around riders and track days for a longggg time - as a learning enviorment it has its limitations. The ERC is much more focused, and a much better value.

[OreoGaborio]

Originally posted by Karaya One
A trackday is just speed without direction. An ERC helps to improve your speed using direction. Both have you using your own bike.

An ERC is the best place to start for building upon your current knowledge and helping you advance to the next level. All a trackday does is have you ride around all day long really fast - but without a plan will you actually learn as much as you think?

I haven't done an ERC, but i HAVE done a few track days (Tony's @ NHIS and Degsy's/Cornerspeed's @ VIR) & I can say it's NOT directionless... the instructors hold little sessions & talk about things to work on while on the track, braking technique, throttle technique, body positioning etc etc etc. they'll ride behind & critique, or lead & show you the way.

from what i can see, BOTH only give what you want to take

ERC = slow stuff & instructors

TD = fast stuff & instructors

I think it completely depends on the student & what they want to achive. from what i've heard, what the ERC teaches i can just as easily learn on my own in a parking lot, a book and some good advice from an educated rider. you can't get on a track & practice those skills @ speed w/o going to a trackday unless you want to risk it on the streets

[Rhonda66]

Originally posted by evile
Took the beginner course with the same folks last year -very informative and entertaining. Although I was a little disapointed that everyone got their endorsement after the class -there were a couple of riders who could barely keep the bike upright

I took the first beginner class in March - 1 guy didn't make it.

[Honclfibr]

Based on what I've heard from others who have taken the course, experiences vary widely based on the instructor teaching the course. But isn't that always the case.

I definitely want to take the ERC at some point, hopefully this season. Doesn't hurt that it's only $50 for new hampshire residents, thanks to state subsidies.

Anyone else in the granite state feel like doing this? Post up, maybe we can get a group together.

[OreoGaborio]

yeah, the cost is what's keeping me from doing it... i'm in MA so it's more than twice what it's costing you... i'm not gonna go spend 125 bucks when the comments from those who have taken it in MA are so inconsistant as they are. i'd much rather spend another 75-100 and get some track time

there's alot you can gain from doing a track day for the not so experienced rider. i did mine when i only had a few thousand miles under my belt & i learned a ton & had a blast.

[ancosta]

I'd love to take the ERC course as well.

In the meantime I am doing some "self study" by reading More Proficient Motorcycling. I read the 1st one a couple of times last year, followed by Twist of the Wrist. Both excellent books and both offered good info that works on the street.

Also I try to really think about my rides, think about what good/bad happened, and try and "listen" to the bike & the feedback it gives when riding in different situations.

I don't know if there are restrictions on who can take a class in a given state. RI has discounted training as well, but I have MA tags on my bike, so not sure if they'll let me take the course there???

[Karaya One]

Other states will let you take the course. But, if the states do not have a reciprocation agreement your course will not get you the insurance discount or make you eligible to gain your license.

In Mass, you get a 10% discount off your comp. insurance if you pass. Also, if you pass the course and you are on a permit you automatically get your license endorsement.

And I STRONGLY agree that the course lives and dies with the quality of the instructors. If you have a couple of meatheads who live and die with HD and do not understand - nor care to - anything about sportbikes nuances you may get disgusted with the class.

Every instructor adds their own flavor to teaching - some call it style - and some people are better teachers than others.

[evile]

So I'm noty unconvinced that a track day is worthwhile - is there a FAQ on the subject anywhere? I found some info on the Penguin racing school but would rather jump into this slowly.

[benVFR]

I wasn't trying to bash MSF... I'd just say go take it with Karaya one, if you are going to register with Ironstone find out if they have adopted the new curriculum. If they haven't adopted the new curriculum assume their version of the ERC is BRC on your own bike.

I complained last year, I took it with MSF instead of whatever group Karaya one teaches with, his group claimed to be doing the new course, Ironstone was doing the old course.

The course I got last summer for the ERC really WAY the BRC on your own bike. Most of the class was people who had skipped the BRC. I know I'd have been more happy in a class that wasn't totally in the parking lot, and maybe required that you had a BRC certificate to register. That class really WAS filled with older guys on VTX1800s, Road Glides, Road Kings, etc.. who had not taken the BRC, quite a few of them dropped the bikes. Keep in mind what experience level they are talking about too, I think they said take ERC after 3,000 miles or 6,000 or something? If you've got 50,000 or 100,000 miles without a problem *that* course might not be your thing.

The instructors just weren't cool either. They were probably fine to go on a ride with but they were total Harley freaks, they sat there and bashed your bike the whole class if you didn't have a Harley, they made sex/race jokes, etc..

I know Ironstone has lots of instructors so they aren't all like that but some of them are not that great. None of the "instructors" I've talked to and followed at track days had an attitude that bad, despite the fact that they didn't have a fancy certificate.

The only thing I learned from that class really was that my bike performs unacceptably badly at parking lot manuevers when the coolant temps are soaring. (Fuel injection crap) It motivated me to get the power commander, it is a lot easier to ride the bike the way the MSF wants you to ride at parking lot speeds now.

[OreoGaborio]

Originally posted by T-595 Greg
it's only $100.

http://www.ironstoneventures.com/

just to set you straight....

oh... well thanks for..... settin me straight

so... 100 bucks just to take the BRC again but on my own bike like ya said? naah... i'm all set.

[Ken C]

Most people, with few exceptions will benefit from taking an ERC. I fully understand that some instructors have limited knowledge and won't be able to relate the type of detail that a rider like Ben would find helpful, but for most riders, the average instructor delivers the curriculum so 98% of the students benefit.

Bridging the gap between an ERC and a track day is a worthwhile goal. If it weren't for liability concerns, there would be programs readily available, but alas.

Track days are an awesome opportunity to learn, especially if you come with a plan about what you want to work on, then approach an instructor who can help you reach that goal.

[benVFR]

I had written a big reply but it got lost and I'm not going to type it again.

I definitely should have written to the President of Ironstone last year, but it is far too late. At the time I was so pissed and disappointed I just wanted to forget about the whole thing. I had held MSF up as something special and was disappointed, maybe I had unrealistic expectations.

The class I took last year did have a mini-track set up for one of the drills. It also had the rear tire locking drills. I was under the impression the "new" curriculum left the parking lot at some point, mine did not.

There were specific things I felt like I wanted to improve to have total mastery of the curriculum, I got the impression I could take the course 10x over and they would never actually be able to get me to that level since there was very little constructive criticism, just barking orders from the script.

[evile]

OK kids I'm fresh back from my day at Ironstone's version of the MSF Experienced Rider course and here's my 2 cents.

Firstly, from what I remember the curriculum was exactly, to the letter, the same as the basic course. As a matter of fact there were 2 people in the class riding Ironstone's Honda 250s and we learned at the end why - they had signed up for the MSF "Intermediate" class.

So, evidentaly the Intermediate class is the same as the Beginner class except that you take it with the Experienced class attendees. And the Experienced class is exactly the same as the Beginner class except that you ride your own bike. Oh, and it costs $175 less than the Beginner class.

Had I known this I never would have signed up. I now understand that the Experienced class is intended for people who know how to ride but either a) need their motorcycle endorsement or b) want the insurance discount. Taking both is a waste of time, almost. It was quite useful to go over all the exercises again and sit through the videos. I've already noticed that I'm more careful in traffic, just about as careful as I was after taking the beginner class

So maybe it makes sense to leave the MSF manual in the bathroom, ahem *library* , and review it periodically to remind me about SEE and DGFK (don't get farkin killed, OK so that's one of my own).


OK, here's an afterthought. I saw a guy wheelie and drop a fully dressed Goldwing, and I met perhaps the most perfect specimen of the genus squiddus gixxerus. And there was a Harley guy who heckled the shiat out of the instructor, in good humor, leading to some gut bustingly fuunny stuff. These things alone were worth the price of admission

(PS - I landed the only perfect score on the eval and the instructors commented on my handling skillz more than once - I kept telling them , it's the SV, not me!)

[Karaya One]

deleted.

Just not worth it.

[OreoGaborio]

Originally posted by Karaya One
deleted.

Just not worth it.

... you CAN actually delete a post, not edit it to say "deleted" to make a point

[Honclfibr]

Originally posted by evile
Firstly, from what I remember the curriculum was exactly, to the letter, the same as the basic course. As a matter of fact there were 2 people in the class riding Ironstone's Honda 250s and we learned at the end why - they had signed up for the MSF "Intermediate" class.

So, evidentaly the Intermediate class is the same as the Beginner class except that you take it with the Experienced class attendees. And the Experienced class is exactly the same as the Beginner class except that you ride your own bike. Oh, and it costs $175 less than the Beginner class.

This seems odd. My impression was that the intermediate course was essentially a repeat of the riding portion of the beginner class, whereas the experienced course was a completely separate curriculum.

Greg, any chance we could get your friend at Ironstone to clarify this? I've been meaning to take the ERC for a while, but I'd like to know that it's a new curriculum. I've talked to people in the past who took it and got a lot out of it, and at the time said it was very differnet from the BRC course. Is this still the case?

[Kham]

this is what i conclude from all the above. for $50, i'll take it for the hell of it. i need some critique. for $200, i'll take track day.

i need another trackday. any offer to tow my bike up to Loudon?