Corner speed

[wiggeywackyo]

The shit slingfest has got me thinking and I didn't want to throw that gem off track so here it is:

Given ideal conditions, what parameters define the fastest corner speed? Lean angle and tires correct? On any given bike, there will be a point where you can lean it no further. So would two riders with the same lean angle be carrying the same corner speed? How about a fast guy and slow guy using the same lean angle with identical body position? What is the difference?

[slammp]

I wear rubber gloves and always drag four fingers (spread evenly) on the inside hand thus increasing my traction by 10 fold on all corners.

[SVRACER01]

can a slow rider(ie:1:25+s) and fast rider (ie: 1:14-s)potentially be going the same speed through a given corner if they had the same lean angle/body position? sure, i suppose. the most likely occurrence would be in a very slow turn like T3. and even in that case (for example) someone like SG could be going through there at 40mph with a knee on the ground and some NV could be doing the same speed without a knee down.

[OreoGaborio]

can a slow rider(ie:1:25+s) and fast rider (ie: 1:14-s)potentially be going the same speed through a given corner if they had the same lean angle/body position? sure, i suppose. the most likely occurrence would be in a very slow turn like T3. and even in that case (for example) someone like SG could be going through there at 40mph with a knee on the ground and some NV could be doing the same speed without a knee down.

Agreed. If you put a all sorts of crazy telemetry on a bike (or bike & rider) and turn it over to a rider doing 25's (Rider S) and another rider doing 14's (Rider F), their MINIMUM speeds and their MAXIMUM lean angles (neither of which may occurr at the same point on the track) for a given corner (T3 is a good example, as a corner like that makes pretty much everyone slow... kind of like the super tight left hander (T5?) at VIR) would very likely be fairly close.

The biggest factor in those 10-12 seconds/lap are how much more ENTRY and EXIT speed Rider F is able to achieve. More often than not, if you were to follow a rider that's a few seconds faster than you, those are the two areas that they'll be making up the most time - entry & exit (I would guess more-so on entry)... not quite so much at the apex.

Lets break down T3 and use some ficticious (but I would say reasonable guestimated) numbers just as an example.

At tip-in, Rider S may be doing 40mph and Rider F doing 50. That's a 10mph, or perhaps more importantly, a 25% difference in speed.
At the the SLOWEST point of the turn, Rider S is probably doing 35 and Rider F doing 40. That's a 5mph, but only about a 14% difference in speed
At the T4 cone, Rider S is maybe doing 50mph, Rider F maybe 70. That's 20mph, but a 40% difference.


Again, those numbers are just pure guesses and I'm sure actual numbers would be very different, but I think my numbers would be FAIRLY reasonable and actual data would still lead to the same conclusion: While a faster rider would still likely have a higher minimum apex speed, entry & exit is where they make up the most time.



Now to kinda hit more on lean angle, Rider X and Rider Y, doing the same exact speed with same exact body positioning, SHOULD, in theory, have the same exact lean angle as that's dictated by the laws of physics. The reason why Rider F can achieve greater lean angles than Rider S on the same bike w/ the same body positioning without crashing, I think, has a lot to do with their inputs and their ability to slide the tires and still maintain control.

[Trouble]

I would assume that your line and your suspension should be thrown in as variables with lean angle, tires and body position.

[Garandman]

I wear rubber gloves and always drag four fingers (spread evenly) on the inside hand thus increasing my traction by 10 fold on all corners.

Best post in history of internet.

Agreed. If you put a all sorts of crazy telemetry on a bike (or bike & rider) and turn it over to a rider doing 25's and another rider doing 14's, their MINIMUM speeds and their MAXIMUM lean angles (neither of which may occurr at the same point on the track) for a given corner (T3 is a good example, as a corner like that makes pretty much everyone slow... kind of like the super tight left hander (T5?) at VIR) would very likely be fairly close.

I don't have lean angles, but here's a roughly 1:37 lap of mine on a V-Strom [which can't lean too far due to peg placement - oh, and lack of mad tite skillz] and Pete Kates "cruising" at 1:19.

While some of the corner speeds are similar, you can see that he gets on the brakes, makes the turn, and accelerates much faster than I do.

[OreoGaborio]

I would assume that your line and your suspension should be thrown in as variables with lean angle, tires and body position.

Line & suspension set-up certainly matters in the real world on the track, but if you wanted to isolate those two variables it would be very easy to create a scenario that eliminates them from the equation.

... draw a line on the ground & tell two riders to take turns riding the line on the same bike. Done.

[wiggeywackyo]

Excellent explanation Oreo. That was about what I had in mind. Sounds like I need to learn to get on the throttle.

[OreoGaborio]

You're welcome. Hope that helps... and more importantly, I hope I'm on the right track!
Hopefully some of the more experienced experts (Ken, Paul, Tony, Degs, E Wood, S Greenie, etc) will chime in with their two cents. I'd like to see their take on it as well. These are the kinda discussions that I like seeing on here and we don't see em NEARLY often enough.

BTW, I made a couple of subtle edits to hopefully make what I was saying a little clearer.

[OreoGaborio]

I don't have lean angles, but here's a roughly 1:37 lap of mine on a V-Strom [which can't lean too far due to peg placement - oh, and lack of mad tite skillz] and Pete Kates "cruising" at 1:19.

While some of the corner speeds are similar, you can see that he gets on the brakes, makes the turn, and accelerates much faster than I do.

Thanks for posting that. Same bike both runs?

Yeah, you can see that your MINIMUM speed for cornering isn't far off of his, but your maximum speeds are very different.

As a result, you can see you're actually braking LATER than him in some spots, but the race of deceleration is a little steeper on his line meaning he's braking harder..

Also interestingly enough, you can see in some areas that you're actually getting on the gas EARLIER... but again, he's getting on the gas HARDER.

[wiggeywackyo]

I wear rubber gloves and always drag four fingers (spread evenly) on the inside hand thus increasing my traction by 10 fold on all corners.

[Paul_E_D]

As stated, lean angle and corner speed have little to do with getting through a corner faster. They do play a role, but it is not the be all, end all of cornering.

It is so dynamic, that the number of factors is very high. Once you are dragging pegs or sliding in a given corner you are FAR from maxing that one out as far as time goes. Now you have to start addressing other factors.

Without writing a book, suffice to say that the entrance and exit is where your time can be improved. Just getting on the gas sooner or harder is usually not possible, otherwise you'd already be doing it! Back all the way up to the moment you roll off. That's where it all starts, and every action you make from there dictates how early and hard you can roll on.

If only it were as easy as just getting on the gas sooner/harder we'd all be pros! Figuring all this out takes years, thousands of laps, and buckets of money.

[wiggeywackyo]

These are the kinda discussions that I like seeing on here and we don't see em NEARLY often enough.
.

That's because it's more important to figure out who's got the faster bench.

[SVRACER01]

If only it were as easy as just getting on the gas sooner/harder we'd all be pros! Figuring all this out takes years, thousands of laps, and buckets of money.

you forgot balls. i think its entirely possible to get on the gas sooner/harder but self preservation generally kicks in and your brain thinks "i cant get on the gas yet because the bike leaned over too far". you lots of people wait (what i feel to be) way too long to get on the gas out of 3 through 4 because they wait until they stand the bike up a little when in actuality you can be on the gas before the transition.

[wiggeywackyo]

As stated, lean angle and corner speed have little to do with getting through a corner faster. They do play a role, but it is not the be all, end all of cornering.

It is so dynamic, that the number of factors is very high. Once you are dragging pegs or sliding in a given corner you are FAR from maxing that one out as far as time goes. Now you have to start addressing other factors.

Without writing a book, suffice to say that the entrance and exit is where your time can be improved. Just getting on the gas sooner or harder is usually not possible, otherwise you'd already be doing it! Back all the way up to the moment you roll off. That's where it all starts, and every action you make from there dictates how early and hard you can roll on.

If only it were as easy as just getting on the gas sooner/harder we'd all be pros! Figuring all this out takes years, thousands of laps, and buckets of money.

I just started thinking about how to build a lap and my head almost exploded.

So another one for the fast guys:

Do you build your perfect lap from the start line forward or from the finish backwards?

[OreoGaborio]

Do you build your perfect lap from the start line forward or from the finish backwards?

Yes

If at any point you're not exactly where you want to be & doing exactly what you want to do, you need to go backwards from that point and see what you need to do differently to get the desired result.

[SVRACER01]

thats a pretty good question. probably both. once you get it going forward you can look backwards to see how to achieve what you want to do going forward.
for example, if you know you need to brake at the 2 board but you want to be going 140mph when you get there but you can only get to 135 then you need to get on the gas sooner in 12.
if you want a straighter trajectory coming out of 2 then you need to late apex 1a, but in order to that you have to late apex 1. see where im going?

[Paul_E_D]

I always think forward.

For me, balls only come into play when you are passing for the win. The rest of the time you should be riding on precise knowledge and technique.

Self preservation kicks in when you lack knowledge... If that is what's holding you back, then you need to go back to the roll off point and work on you plan for the corner. Just sacking up will land you on your head.

[OreoGaborio]

you forgot balls. i think its entirely possible to get on the gas sooner/harder but self preservation generally kicks in and your brain thinks "i cant get on the gas yet because the bike leaned over too far". you lots of people wait (what i feel to be) way too long to get on the gas out of 3 through 4 because they wait until they stand the bike up a little when in actuality you can be on the gas before the transition.

For me, balls only come into play when you are passing for the win. The rest of the time you should be riding on precise knowledge and technique.

Self preservation kicks in when you lack knowledge... If that is what's holding you back, then you need to go back to the roll off point and work on you plan for the corner. Just sacking up will land you on your head.

Interesting points... you can certainly argue it either way, but I agree with both points.

There's a term that I like to use every once in a while... that phrase is "Stupid Fast"... I use it when describing someone who's quick, but doesn't necessarily have the knowledge or the technique to back up their speed. Those are the guys with balls.

Then there's another term (which I just made up )... "Smart Slow"... those are the guys who have the knowledge an the technique, but lack the courage to use it fully.

[SVRACER01]

i got the slow part down pat

[SVRACER01]

I always think forward.

For me, balls only come into play when you are passing for the win. The rest of the time you should be riding on precise knowledge and technique.

Self preservation kicks in when you lack knowledge... If that is what's holding you back, then you need to go back to the roll off point and work on you plan for the corner. Just sacking up will land you on your head.

i see what youre saying. like, i KNOW that i can get on the gas sooner and hold it pinned from before the apex of 6 to the entrance of 9. its having the BALLS to not roll off a little in 7.

VIR full is another. i KNOW that the esses after the bridge can be done 6th gear WFO and i do that but the left at the gazebo going into the cavity im fairly certain that i can stay WFO through it and i try to tell myself as i get to it "dont roll off, dont roll off" then just before tip in i instinctively roll off a little. then i say to myself "pussy"

[RyanNicholson]

To go back to Oreo's original post (very well put)... I always thought of a faster rider as someone who manages extreme change in speed well. Later braking into T1 nets you a MUCH faster entrance (more time at top speed) but requires a lot of skill to get down to apex speed in time for the corner, and back up to max speed as quickly as possible.

Late/hard on the brakes, and early/hard on the go stick are key (and scary/difficult). Your line is selected based on maximizing speed based on that, but you still need to get through the same corners.

Obviously maintaining speed through a corner is a big factor as well... which accounts for other side of this coin but like Pete said the percentage difference isn't as great when we're talking about a 1:25 rider vs a 1:14 rider.

[wiggeywackyo]

... I always thought of a faster rider as someone who manages extreme change in speed well.

Extremely enlightening there. Just had a whoa moment. My bench just gained like a gajillion horsepower.

[RyanNicholson]

Extremely enlightening there. Just had a whoa moment. My bench just gained like a gajillion horsepower.

I just realized that the way I explained it almost sounds like I'm encouraging someone to park it in the corners. Thats not what I meant at all... but usually where I've found more speed, or seen a difference between myself and faster riders... this is where they're hiding it in one way or another.

[Garandman]

Thanks for posting that. Same bike both runs?

Yeah, you can see that your MINIMUM speed for cornering isn't far off of his, but your maximum speeds are very different.

As a result, you can see you're actually braking LATER than him in some spots, but the race of deceleration is a little steeper on his line meaning he's braking harder..

Also interestingly enough, you can see in some areas that you're actually getting on the gas EARLIER... but again, he's getting on the gas HARDER.

No, it's a 500lb, 63hp V-Strom DL650A with near-geriatric owner versus his 600cc sport bike and a rider with actual skill.

That's from the GPS recorder that Loudog has been selling. As you can link a video to it, I bet it wouldn't be too difficult to attach some record of lean angle as well.