Gauging interest in a new class

[Lucas]

CCS rules as written, the Honda is allowed unlimited engine mods, no problemo making that 250 scream enough to tackle the 300.

Of course that costs money...

In the end, what if setup A is clearly outrunning setup B? Ofcourse you bought into setup B and you are SOL.

[Kurlon]

In the end, what if setup A is clearly outrunning setup B? Ofcourse you bought into setup B and you are SOL.

Nothing new there in racing.

[Lucas]

I agree but if the idea of the class is to be tight cheap racing then maybe it would be better to make it a single bike cup series. Either only cbr250 or only ninja 300.

The way it is now I'd probably hold out an extra year to see which bike has the advantage.

[Degsy]

Wirelessly posted

The ninja, even in 250 form will kill the Honda. I think it should be any make race but people would be aware the the ninja is the bike to be on in 250s. Of course, there is rumor of an R250 from Yamaha.

[TheIglu]

You can get a somewhat prepped SV for the price of most 250's. You can get a fully prepped EX for the same price.

There has been a cheap production class this whole time, Prod Twins. And it is dying.

If you people think an EX is a toilet, then wtf do you think the 250 is?

Love the 500 haters. Those toilets make riders that blow away half of you best lap times on bikes with twice the hp, suspension and brakes.

[Lucas]

You can get a somewhat prepped SV for the price of most 250's. You can get a fully prepped EX for the same price.

There has been a cheap production class this whole time, Prod Twins. And it is dying.

If you people think an EX is a toilet, then wtf do you think the 250 is?

Love the 500 haters. Those toilets make riders that blow away half of you best lap times on bikes with twice the hp, suspension and brakes.

And why do you think it's dying?

[TheIglu]

And why do you think it's dying?

Ego.

[Lucas]

Ego.

Since you only gave me one word I'm just going to assume you mean something along the lines of power twins and racing the ex500s is dying because new riders have an ego and just know their riding talent can use all the power of an I4 600.

I was thinking more along the lines of new and potential racers lose interest when you show them an ugly, jerry-rigged ex500 that's been whored around nesr for 10-15 years.

You show that same rider a sleek, new, full fairing little brother of the big bike they want to race at half the cost and now you are generating some interest.

And even thought this is a cost effective class, I'm sure a lot of new and younger riders would rather pony up a little more cash to have more respectable race program.

[Degsy]

Wirelessly posted

There's a steampunk kudos to running an EX500. All power to those that race them but I never wanted to. The ex is the huffy with a basket of motorcycles and there's a certain sense of achievement to getting one around the track at pace. And if you cash one bad you're out $20 usually.

The ninja 250 is a different beast altogether. It's built to handle much more than the 500 is. My bet is that it's easier to go faster on a ninja 250 than the 500.

[BackMarker-943]

I bet you could get an entire season on a set of tires and still fight for the podium.

Come on ..., no way ????

You can take a top finishing expert level rider and go a whole season on one set of sneakers ????

[b0xmonkey]

Come on ..., no way ????

You can take a top finishing expert level rider and go a whole season on one set of sneakers ????

Absolutely. Maybe a season and a half.

[TheIglu]

Since you only gave me one word I'm just going to assume you mean something along the lines of power twins and racing the ex500s is dying because new riders have an ego and just know their riding talent can use all the power of an I4 600.

I was thinking more along the lines of new and potential racers lose interest when you show them an ugly, jerry-rigged ex500 that's been whored around nesr for 10-15 years.

You show that same rider a sleek, new, full fairing little brother of the big bike they want to race at half the cost and now you are generating some interest.

And even thought this is a cost effective class, I'm sure a lot of new and younger riders would rather pony up a little more cash to have more respectable race program.

What class did you/do you race?

This is about perception. People think the EX500's are slow as dogshit.

Problem is, they are still running 1:21's on stock exhaust, motor, air box and carbs for cheaper than any other bike out there. They look like hell because they can crash, get ugly, and continue racing for years repeating the same thing. You don't need new bodywork, clipons, subframe, fairing stay, engine covers, etc etc etc every time you crash.

And you think those 250's won't look like shit after a few years?

I've ridden both. Fun as the 250 is, the EX500 is nearly identical in frame design, suspension, brakes, etc.

To rag on an EX while calling the ninjette a good racer is horseshit and you know it.

I'm all for more classes, but I see the 250 class ending up like Prod Twins.

[TheIglu]

Ego, as in, "you race what? Oh, when are you going to race a real bike?".

[BackMarker-943]

Absolutely. Maybe a season and a half.

Stop it ..., Really !!!

Do the tires even go thru heat cycles ???

I know that I have been out of the game for a long time now .. ...... But , I would figure with the amount of corner speed you could carry with these little things ..., that the rear tire would start to cry'n around mid season or earlier from all the practice and race time they would have on them ... No ????

[zx1012r]

Stop it ..., Really !!!

Do the tires even go thru heat cycles ???

I know that I have been out of the game for a long time now .. ...... But , I would figure with the amount of corner speed you could carry with these little things ..., that the rear tire would start to cry'n around mid season or earlier from all the practice and race time they would have on them ... No ????

I ran a full 2 seasons on a Dunlop DOT front running low 20's / high 19's on my EX500. I'm not kidding. 2 full seasons! The rears were take-offs from my SV so they would only do 2 or 3 weekends. Granted I was only doing 2 practices and 1 race on the EX per weekend.

The most endearing factor about the EX500 for me, even after getting up to speed on an SV, is the amount of time you are totally out of shape sliding and bucking the thing around. Like 125's, it's all about keeping corner speed and getting back on the gas as soon as possible. I loved the class because it's about the rider, not the equipment. It teaches you how to ride around the bike and adapt to crap, rather than setup that continually evolves on a more modern bike.

I always liked production racing because #1: I'm cheap and can't afford a spears racing motor, cartridge insert forks, etc. #2: It's all about the rider. I was able to keep up to and even pass Jeff in a race on the EX (granted he was newly back on an EX for that weekend but I'm gonna remember the glory of that moment my entire life!) and I was able to beat Ricky once in a while on the SV in that production class. I had to hang it out so far on my production SV in LWSS to keep near the front the close calls were becoming too much.

I think a production or lightly supersport 250 series would be fun as hell! Hmmmm.....

[Lucas]

What class did you/do you race?

This is about perception. People think the EX500's are slow as dogshit.

Problem is, they are still running 1:21's on stock exhaust, motor, air box and carbs for cheaper than any other bike out there. They look like hell because they can crash, get ugly, and continue racing for years repeating the same thing. You don't need new bodywork, clipons, subframe, fairing stay, engine covers, etc etc etc every time you crash.

And you think those 250's won't look like shit after a few years?

I've ridden both. Fun as the 250 is, the EX500 is nearly identical in frame design, suspension, brakes, etc.

To rag on an EX while calling the ninjette a good racer is horseshit and you know it.

I'm all for more classes, but I see the 250 class ending up like Prod Twins.

I'm not trying to argue any of those points because they are all true. Just trying to offer a different view from new and younger riders. Whatever grabs their attention and gets them to a track is what's its all about. I feel that the new cbr and ninja have a better chance.

I raced a 600rr. Looking to either racing my monster 796 in ultralights, an ex in power twins, or possibly a 250 in this new class. We shall see. . .

[csmutty]

Eric Wood did bring this up at the end of the rulebook meeting last night. We shall see what happens.

[OreoGaborio]

Stop it ..., Really !!!

Do the tires even go thru heat cycles ???

I know that I have been out of the game for a long time now .. ...... But , I would figure with the amount of corner speed you could carry with these little things ..., that the rear tire would start to cry'n around mid season or earlier from all the practice and race time they would have on them ... No ????

Bought my EX my rookie season. Raced almost two full seasons, got down into the 1:24's and sold it without ever changing the tires.

[Kurlon]

The ninja, even in 250 form will kill the Honda. I think it should be any make race but people would be aware the the ninja is the bike to be on in 250s. Of course, there is rumor of an R250 from Yamaha.

If we're going PTwins rules, I agree. If we're going standard CCS rules, the Honda being a single has a TON of hop up potential with bolt up parts now to eclipse a SS Ninja's output at the rear wheel, plus a weight and handling advantage out of the crate... if someone is willing to foot the cash for the build.

[Kurlon]

Stealing a page from WERA, what about a Crippled MW class? Take a 600, defeat one cylinder (it's as simple as unplugging one injector, and plugging a dud injector into the now loose plug to keep the ECU happy) and you've got a 450cc tripple that looks and feels like a modern machine, but is numb enough to be easy on tires and easy on first timers who don't want to jump onto 110hp just to get their feet wet. Easy to convert back to a full MW, there isn't any fear of 600s going away any time soon, they are cheap and plentiful used, race parts are readily available...

It goes completely against the normal CCS rule structure by relying on downsizing a bike, but it may scratch the same itch?

[Degsy]

Wirelessly posted

Stealing a page from WERA, what about a Crippled MW class? Take a 600, defeat one cylinder (it's as simple as unplugging one injector, and plugging a dud injector into the now loose plug to keep the ECU happy) and you've got a 450cc tripple that looks and feels like a modern machine, but is numb enough to be easy on tires and easy on first timers who don't want to jump onto 110hp just to get their feet wet. Easy to convert back to a full MW, there isn't any fear of 600s going away any time soon, they are cheap and plentiful used, race parts are readily available...

It goes completely against the normal CCS rule structure by relying on downsizing a bike, but it may scratch the same itch?

That's a great idea. My only concern is that unburned fuel would be staying in the cylinder, washing the top ring and a lot of unburnt fuel would enter the hot exhaust system and cause after firing and flames.

[OreoGaborio]

Degs, he's saying pull an injector & replace it with a bad one.

[Kurlon]

By unplugging that cylinder's injector, the only path for fuel to get into the cylinder would be via blowback from the other cylinders drifting into the defeated one's intake tract. (Or if the defeated injector leaked...) The spark plug is still in place and working along with the intake and exhaust valves so should fuel show up it'll either light off if there is enough, or get pumped out by normal cylinder action.

Specifically, one injector has it's wiring unplugged, it stays in the rail to eliminate having to find a way to seal the rail and the intake tract if you went with wholesale removal. An additional injector (either buy it OEM, or find one off ebay) is plugged into the wiring harness but not the fuel rail so the ECU sees the appropriate load and doesn't freak out/throw codes.

[Degsy]

Wirelessly posted

I totally read injector and heard coil. Stupid brain.

[Degsy]

Wirelessly posted

So what about upper cylinder lubrication?