The nitty gritty of rear brake technique & its benefits

[OreoGaborio]

Aight.... I know the reasons of why NOT to use it... lets hear the (lesser known) reasons of why you SHOULD use it (race track related only).
How has using the rear brake directly lowered your lap times?

I think I remember a13x saying something about the top motard guys dragging it in 10 to reduce chatter or something like that... what else?

Just trying to determine what I'm missing out on, since some prick on another forum seems to be so adamant about making me use it.

The rear brake will actually keep the rear wheel on the ground during heavy braking, which helps provide up to 20% more braking power (which means you can stop in a shorter distance or apply the brakes later) and helps to keep the back of the bike in line with the front of the bike, unless one decides to over modulate it to get the back of the bike to slip around the front of the bike to square off a corner. i.e. backing it in.

Imagine how much better you could be if you opened your mind and learned how to properly use that primary motorcycle control.

Not learning how to use the rear brake properly (as you obviously haven't) is as foolish as not learning how to use the front brake properly.

*snipped most of the bullshit*


How much of this holds any merit? Is the rear brake something I should include in my "bag o' tricks"? Is it something I should be concerned about?



Please don't let this turn into a "here's why I DON'T use it" thread... I know all that already.
I'd like to hear from those that actively DO use it on the track, are quicker for it and specifically WHERE and WHY you use it under "normal" circumstances.

[Kurlon]

I mainly use it on the minis as I haven't encountered this on the GS, and I dunno if it's got the HP for it to be a problem... When you're doing a left to right or right to left transition while getting on the gas, a light touch on the rear brake can help keep the bike settled through maneuver. I was advised to do so by an LRRS regular as a way to drop my times at MIK.

[Pittenger5]

I've never understood why more "good" guys dont use it. At my level, obviously I have enough to worry about in heavy braking zones than adding another thing, but more brakes would make you slow quicker, so why dont more guys use it? Or do even they have enough to worry about into heavy braking zones.

[Degsy]

Used to use it in turn 1 and 3 to try to control the rear end hop. Have a slipper clutch now and I'm getting used to not using the rear brake ever.

Sorry I can't be more useful.

P.S The guy who replied to your post on another forum sounds like he's a pompous ass who knows everything about everything (probably never raced in his life)

degs

[lrrs313]

I've been told pretty much the same as you. Dragging the rear will keep the rear settled under heavy braking. The important thing to remember is to apply the rear BEFORE applying the front, if this is what you're trying to accomplish. The only time I've used the rear brake at the track was when I was no longer on asphalt......

[butcher bergs]

Mind telling me where my posts went?

[Paul_E_D]

I can't be of any help in this thread...

[OreoGaborio]

Mind telling me where my posts went?

same place as this thread Don't take it personally, Bergs, it's not that your posts were worthless, I was just hoping to hear specifics on when/where one can benefit from using the rear brake under specific circumstances w/o having to filter though all the other stuff. It just wasn't turning into the thread I was hoping for.

[schleppy]

I have yet to do a track day, let alone race, but I've always found the rear brake to be an immense help in straight line, heavy braking. Tapping the rear brake down a second before you dig in with the front brake helps the front end/bike settle in. It was especially helpful before I had the SV's front shocks re-sprung.

I found that little gem in the Sport Riding Techniques book.

Maybe it's wrong, I don't know. All I know is it feels right on the SV, and it seems to shorten my braking distances.

[butcher bergs]

It just wasn't turning into the thread I was hoping for.

Gotcha.

Yes, the response you quoted holds merit, IMHO. Sift through the pretentiousness and there's good solid info contained within the response.

I turned my personal best time by using the rear brake going into 3, again going into 6 and again setting up for 11. Keeping in mind I'm still working on many aspects of becoming a successful racer, the method I use for rear brake usage is to apply the fronts in order to begin the process settling the chassis for turn initiation, once I've nearly completed my gear selection (with front brakes still on), I then begin applying pressure to the rear brake to hopefully avoid swingarm chatter in addition to increasing braking capabilities. I have yet to explore "backing it in" on the race bike but have seen minor success when using this method on my street bike (to which I have much more experience and comfort riding).

[OreoGaborio]

Yeah, but you're also still making huge improvements in many other areas of your riding as well.... Thus your PB lap time may or may not have anything to do w/ the fact that you were using the rear brake in those sections... It's just too hard to say right now whether or not the rear brake played a significant role in turning out that new personal best.

Not to mention the rear wheel hop could be caused by something suspension, tire or clutch related and the rear brake is just curing the symptoms of that.

That make sense or am I off base?

[butcher bergs]

Yeah, but you're also still making huge improvements in many other areas of your riding as well.... Thus your PB lap time may or may not have anything to do w/ the fact that you were using the rear brake in those sections... It's just too hard to say right now whether or not the rear brake had anything to do with your PB lap time.

Not to mention the rear wheel hop may be caused by something suspension or technique related and the rear brake is just curing the symptoms of that.

That make sense or am I off base?

I agree with the difficulty of gauging how or why that time was turned....lack of traffic was definitely part of that equation.

Admittedly, I'm a Novice, yes, but I know what ocurred in order to acheive a set goal and surpass that goal by a few seconds. The only two things I changed for that one particular race was adding the usage of rear brakes and driving much harder out of 2 (thanks to advice and observation from Black Squirrell 441).

For the record: My rear suspension has yet to hop and is only a fraction of the equation as to why I've decided to work on skills for usage of the rear brakes.

[burnham]

I've tried dragging it through T6, and 12. I think it helps to keep the rear from spinning up, and tighten my line a little. I haven't done enough of it to know what works, still kinda playing around at this point.

[Evil_Weasel]

i know i'm just a slow novice but i would tap the rear brake on the buell cresting the hill by the flag poles. i fugured it out after the bars hit me in the face one day...causing a small slapper into the T6 braking zone. anyway, i didn't want to back off the gas any sooner but i definatly didn't want to do that again either. taping the brake at the crest while holding WOT was my solution...seems to work.

[RyanNicholson]

I've played with it, and if I'm late braking someone I tend to put some pressure on the pedal to help out. Its not something I use regularly or as much as I probably should though. So in a way I can't say that it has directly dropped my lap times by using it. I know there is certainly an advantage, its just one of many I've yet to figure out. T1 and T3 like Degs said seem like the most logical places, since they're both pretty high speed entry and late braking areas. T1 personally I'm a bit of a pansy, because that particular corner and I don't get along all that well....and I know I could carry more speed through T3. If I'm passing someone on the inside on the brakes in those (or similar) corners I'll drag the rear to help the cause...but its probably something I should be doing more of.

Not sure if that helps, but I know it's probably helped keep me in control in an "oh shit I hope I make it" pass in that situation. Downshifting has a similar affect (or can anyway).... ever gone into an entry focus corner so hot you miss all your downshifts? if you do...your rear wheel will be asking to come off the ground (happened to me in Daytona). It seems to me that if you're comfortable braking at your current marker, you could brake later if dragging your rear for all the reasons already stated. I personally don't think I'm at that point yet though.

That's just from my experience, I'd be interested to hear what some of the super fast guys have to say though.

[beet]

Ride a bigass cruisa you will use the rears like a dirtbike.

[a13x]

Pete,

Reread this thread here http://www.nestreetriders.com/forum/...de-report.html as I talk about using the rear brake a few places on this particular racetrack (Laguna Seca) and how it directly helped make me go faster and keep the bike in Control.

Past that in response to you referencing my comment about us motard guys. Yes, we all use the rear brake alot on motards. Once you start pushing past the 1:20 barrier the amount of front wheel chatter you get becomes pretty insane. This, on motards, is because motards are designed to be dirtbikes and run 21" fronts and 19" rear tires. We throw 17" slicks on there and go roadracing. The front end is all out of wack geometry-wise. New triple clamps helps with this (hence why most guys drop a second with new triples) but you get the chatter again once you get to the next low laptime barrier. Dragging the rear brake thru the entire turn (on motards) helps drop the rear end and raise the front taking some of the weight/pressure off the front tire aka: reducing chatter. We basically lightly drag the rear brake throughout the entire turn.

On a 'normal' bike (like the 848) above I find that I've learned to use the rear brake differently and in other circumstances. Some of which the other guys have touched upon already, and like my ride report above references.


It isn't something I recommend riders experimenting with heavily (in racing environment) unless they feel they have really maxed out their current laptime and are feeling *very* comfortable in all aspects of (front-only) braking and cornering. That's just IMO. YMMV.

[OreoGaborio]

Word, thanks dude.

Now if we can only get PK, MM and SG to chime in

PK: TWIST THAT THROTTLE, PUSSY!
MM: Needs more trail
SG: I dunno, I just go really friggin fast.

[KB]

I run a tard and don't touch the rear brake at all. Maybe I need to?

KB

[BMFR6]

I have experimented with it coming into 3, mainly to help keep the rear end settled, but to be honest I don't think it made much of a difference for ME, may work wonders for others. The rear did stay more planted, but a part of that could have been me making a slower entry simply due to the fact I was trying something new.

I have heard of some success in using it in rain races, simply to have more stopping power, but of course you want to be off it before turn in. pretty sure trailbraking in the rain with the rear brake could end badly.

[a13x]

I run a tard and don't touch the rear brake at all. Maybe I need to?

KB

If your front is cha-cha-chattering then you need to.

[PPS26]

i tried using the rear brake from 9-10 on the motard def helped chatter..rick ran a whole supersport race on the sv with ONLY rear brakes and was doing 16.5s i have no interrest in rear brakingg haha

[Honclfibr]

rick ran a whole supersport race on the sv with ONLY rear brakes and was doing 16.5s

Is that even possible? My attempt at stopping my bike with the rear brake when the front brakes failed going into turn 1 resulted in the use of the Nascar oval, the rear tire locking up several times, and just barely getting the bike stopped before turn 2. And this was at EX speeds. I just can't see anyone doing 16.5s with only a rear brake...

[Paul_E_D]

Yes, that's doable... for Rick. One day I tried racing with a broken scaphoid and couldn't use my front brakes. I was turning 20-21s using NO brakes on my 125. That thing has no torque or BACK torque either, so I can see 16s on the SV. I don't think the rear brake was effecting anything though...

[Honclfibr]

You people are insane. Holy shit.