Novus, Amateurs sound off...

[legalspeed]

http://sports.groups.yahoo.com/group/NEAR/message/23623

[OreoGaborio]

.... that whole topic is SUCH a grey area that I don't even know what to think about it.... But I DO think there should be an AM championship. That's what they said at the beginning & they should hold to it.

I'm in the fortunate position to have a number of friends that I compete directly side by side with and we're pretty much progressing at the same rate. Next year will be one helluva season for us. I hope to be able to compete against them for the PTwins AM Championship (if it exists) & will work hard to get there... I know for a fact that I'll be passing some experts out there and to me, that won't take away from the fact that i'm probably gonna be competing for something that some people value less than an EX championship.

The other issue I have is that i'm on a "specialized" bike... meaning it's really only competative (for top 5 or so) in one class or two classes. Yeah I can race in other classes, but I quickly found that in the AM class it's pretty tough to compete in LSPM, GTL and ULSB on a PTWIN bike. Even PTWIN leaders seem to have a tough time finishing above .500 in the other eligible classes. That means I probably won't have the opportunity to even chose whether or not to bump to EX next season if I continue to do LSPM, GTL and USLB. It'll be tough to reach that .500 index. I think right now mine's like .2



Anyway... I think it's a bummer that Experts look down on the AM's, but as Experts and people with opinions, they do have that right to feel that way.

[Awesome]

whatever, i like to race.

[McBiggity]

Originally posted by hessogood
whatever, i like to race.

couldn't have said it better.

[OreoGaborio]

Originally posted by McBiggity
couldn't have said it better.

well of course you can't

[McBiggity]

Originally posted by OreoGitorio
well of course you can't

i am not the literary genious that you are.

[mmracer37]

Us experts don't look down on you......um.....what do you call you guys.............oh yeah ...........amateurs. We need someone to pick on.

All kidding aside, there are a lot of good points on both sides of the issue. I can assure you, as a rider rep, it is going to be discussed at our meeting at the banquet. I don't want to get a whole debate going on a second forum, so if you have any ideas, pm them to me.

[legalspeed]

Originally posted by hessogood
whatever, i like to race.

Then post that up.

This list is obscure, I want people to be heard.

If you agree with dropping awards and retracting purses 1/2 way through the season, then go ahead and post it up.

[Awesome]

FINE!

[TheIglu]

I'm not EX, so I can't say anything relevant.

[legalspeed]

Jerry Wood replied, there will be Am Championship trophies!

[OreoGaborio]

and he quoted YOU

U know what that means... he's got his eye on you

I liked the points that Lee and Ilya made towards the end...

[Honclfibr]

I have no opinion on this matter, on account of I can't seem to figure out what the most important people are saying so that I can agree with them.

Except, I think there should be a Novice championship for outstanding achievement in the field of excellence.

On account of I'm gonna be a novice forever and I'd really like to win something.

[Paul_E_D]

Novice champion is an oxymoron.

Amatuer championships are fine. It gives incentive to do well, and teaches you some of the things it will take to win at the next level. We didn't have it when I came through, but it would have been nice.

On the other hand, there is no reasonable way to expect that you will get huge props from experts for winning an Am championship. This is racing afterall. Do you think Mat Mladin is giving Jeff Wood mad props for winning FUSA? I doubt it.

You will win the respect and admiration of your peers, but people at the next level won't really have you on their radar. That's just the nature of competition.

[zx1012r]

Mike, I would like you, as our rider rep, to convince Bob Kessel's wife to come up more often to cook us food. While the swordfish and Cathy's salad were tremendous, and I easily gained 10 lbs. this year having moved our garage, I feel we are being neglected in the breakfast and lunch department. Now get of your butt and get these important issues taken care of!

Mark Dages

[mmracer37]

Originally posted by zx1012r
Mike, I would like you, as our rider rep, to convince Bob Kessel's wife to come up more often to cook us food. While the swordfish and Cathy's salad were tremendous, and I easily gained 10 lbs. this year having moved our garage, I feel we are being neglected in the breakfast and lunch department. Now get of your butt and get these important issues taken care of!

Mark Dages

, but as a rider rep, I do have to respond to each inquiry. I will present this specific request to the appropriate commitee for validation and upon receipt of approval or denial, you, as a well respected individual of the community, will be informed of the outcome of the proceedings indicated previously. I hope this clarifies my position on this matter.

[OreoGaborio]

Hey Mike, I think Cathy the Grid Lady was cheating at Poker... I mean, she was winning money w/o even playing any hands..... Think you could bring that up at the next meeting too?

[mmracer37]

Originally posted by OreoGitorio
Hey Mike, I think Cathy the Grid Lady was cheating at Poker... I mean, she was winning money w/o even playing any hands..... Think you could bring that up at the next meeting too?

That's not cheating, I was paying.....uh wait a minute.......Yeah she was cheating!!!!

[legalspeed]

Originally posted by OreoGitorio
and he quoted YOU

U know what that means... he's got his eye on you :

I'm married!

[a13x]

My reply. Silly me for trying to work on solutions.
Paul: If you are a top Expert/Amateur, you better keep your eyes on the top guys the level below you, because those are the guys who are going to be gunning for your spot.



-------------------------


I've never been so ashamed of being part of LRRS until reading this Am/Racer talk today. Pretty enlightening. Then I read Doug Scheer's reply and I felt much better.


I've been called a sandbagger a few times (after my 3rd Novice race and after my 2nd Amateur race..) so it's something I've thought about a bit. Along with thought about Amateur Championships and the like. Here's a few things:


- The majority of the other roadracing orgs only have two skill levels: Amateur and Expert. Both are Championships with points and standings.

- LRRS has 3 skill levels: Novice, Amateur, and Expert. Currently only Expert and Amateur have Championships with points and standings.

- Give points and Championships to all 3 levels. Top 3 in Amateur and Top 5 Novice Championship Final Standings get automatic bump up one level the following season. This eliminates 'sandbaggers' and makes for good racing across all three levels. Exactly how horrible can someone sandbag anyway? There *is* minimum upgrade requirements already, that include a minimum number of races at that level. If you do 2 races per weekend, it takes you at least 5 weekends to get out of Novice and 6.5 to get out of Amateur. There are only 8 race weekends a season. So you can only truely sandbag (doing 2 races per weekend) for 2 weekends before the season ends and you get the automatic boot. Assuming you make every race weekend. At the very worst you have a sandbagger for one whole season. Oh god the horror.

- Make the upgrade index harder. .500 is a joke. Expert, Amateur, and Novice should refer to your skill at riding a motorcycle quickly, not entering 56 races in 4 weekends. There is nothing wrong with being a Novice, or a Amateur, if that is where your skill level dicates you truely belong. With the current system, and the Schoolyard Bully mentality displayed in this recent conversation, lots of people upgrade because they feel like 'they have too' rather than they should. There is a boatload of Experts out there truddling around the racetrack who have no business in the Expert class. Or: Promotional Points (see below)

- If you are a Expert, and you shine your black numbers everynight while scoffing at the shitty non-racer Ams and Novices. Pat yourself on the back. Good job, you just alienated new members to our already tiny niche sport and make them feel like unwanted trash. Bravo. Maybe they'll go spend their hundreds of dollars elsewhere.

- Motocross gives Championships and points to all classes, all ages, all skill levels. If a bunch of teenagers and children can handle this pressure and responsibility, maybe middle-age men can too.

- Motocross also uses promotional points. Maybe a alternative to the Index method.http://www.nemx.org/forms/NEMX_2005_Rule_Book.pdf See pages 12-15


If you start the season as a Novice or Amateur, and have a legit shot at winning the Championship for that class, by all means go for it that one year you can. The number of people that can move to Expert and have a real shot at knocking the incumbent winners out of the way is quite small, and once you go up.. you're up.


-alex434

[Awesome]

I'd like to review the number of races and indexes of some riders to put some of the opinions in perspective, but I can't find the current advancement listings or any past advancement listing on the site. I do however know of AM with 80+ races and a qualifying index who continue to race in that class. Is that justifyable?

[a13x]

Originally posted by hessogood
I do however know of AM with 80+ races and a qualifying index who continue to race in that class. Is that justifyable?

No that's gay balls. However, I defininately think .500 Index is way to low. So if you have done 87 races with a .501... probably should stay in AM.

There was a Am I raced against last year (during my two weekends as a Am) who had over a 100 races, and consistently finished in the Top 5. Then went to Daytona and finished 2nd in the ROC (which gives you a auto CCS bump btw..). I saw he was still listed as a Amateur for 2006.. that's sandbaggin my man.

[Awesome]

It's hard to stipulate since sandbagging is opinion. Should an AM with 5 races running 3 or 4 seconds faster than the rest of his grids stay an AM for a year? Like it was said before, that's not racing. How long was Shane an NV, and AM running the times he was doing? I don't think .5 is low. I think I could race EX and I was fine with doing that, and my index is below .5.

[a13x]

Originally posted by hessogood
I don't think .5 is low. I think I could race EX and I was fine with doing that, and my index is below .5. [/B]

Make the upgrade index harder. .500 is a joke. Expert, Amateur, and Novice should refer to your skill at riding a motorcycle quickly. There is nothing wrong with being a Novice, or a Amateur, if that is where your skill level dicates you truely belong. With the current system, and the Schoolyard Bully mentality displayed in this recent conversation, lots of people upgrade because they feel like 'they have too' rather than they should. There is a boatload of Experts out there truddling around the racetrack who have no business in the Expert class.

[Honclfibr]

I think the system we have is stupid. We need a more comprehensive system that takes into account experience level, wins, lap times, and standings in order to determine the class you run in.

I propose the following function:

F(Class) {Novice, Amateur, Expert} = Integral[for all x, where x = number of races entered] (Standing (Race(x) - Race(x -1) / Races Entered) * (Years LRRS has existed) / (Years you have been racing) + (Bike Displacement in CC) / (Maximum Theoretical Bike Displacement) - (Shock Upgrade ? 50 : 0) + (Pegs ? Sweet : Dude) * differential (Races Left / Time elapsed since the epoch).

No, wait, that's dumb. Let's just do whatever we're doing now. Racing is fun, even when you suck and don't win.