Stoner - Sideways Much?

[Jason P.]

that be some balls.

[Kazinator]

new wallpaper

[PainfullySlow]

Drifting out. Traction control can't prevent drifting due to high corner speeds.

Can you edumacate me here Paul? I havent ridden a bike with TC yet but I do know that these kinds of drifts just werent possible (or caught on camera maybe?) before TC hit the scene. I assume that the TC keeps the rear wheel spinning at just the right ratio keeping it in that sweet spot of drift but not spinning out of control and stepping out further resulting in a crash, essentially removing throttle modulation as a concern for the rider during the slide. Is this an incorrect assumption?

Meh, the dual tire drift is nowhere near as puckering as the single tire step, be it front or rear.

I am not so sure I would agree with this Chip. Back stepping out now doesnt even phase me, front push/chatter makes me nervous as all hell but at least I know the rear is planted when it is happening. I think soft traction on both wheels at the same time would require me to clean my leathers.

[Paul_E_D]

I can't say that I have much experience with traction control either, but this type of slide is absolutely possible without it. If you increase your entry speed there is a certain point at which your cornering forces will overcome traction limits. It has nothing to do with throttle at that point. Tip the bike in hard enough, with enough speed and it will drift. Sometimes front, sometimes rear, sometimes both. Depends on the rider's/bike's weight balance at the time as well as any other rider inputs.

Traction control may make managing the drift easier because it keeps wheelspin in check. You can't accelerate much til the rear tire hooks up again.

I was able to drift my 125 predictably in T2 at Loudon and that bike has no torque or power to speak of. It was simply an equation of speed and cornering force. I would use maintenance throttle during the drift and as soon as the wheels hooked up I was on it hard.

It wasn't anything as spectacular as Stoner, but it was a regular thing and I could predict and control it.

[scottieducati]

Clearly you've never seen Gary McCoy ride.

Garry McCoy Drift - Yamaha Red Bull - YouTube

Garry McCoy DRIFT !! - YouTube

Garry McCoy sliding a ducati - YouTube

Don't mind the ghey music on one of the vids.

The rear wheel spinning at a modest % faster than forward motion yields the most acceleration. The rear tire on most big bikes is usually spinning under hard acceleration, so much so the tire itself will often spin around the wheel (we saw this when Laverty was testing his AMA Superbike at VIR with us a couple years back).

Can you edumacate me here Paul? I havent ridden a bike with TC yet but I do know that these kinds of drifts just werent possible (or caught on camera maybe?) before TC hit the scene. I assume that the TC keeps the rear wheel spinning at just the right ratio keeping it in that sweet spot of drift but not spinning out of control and stepping out further resulting in a crash, essentially removing throttle modulation as a concern for the rider during the slide. Is this an incorrect assumption?


I am not so sure I would agree with this Chip. Back stepping out now doesnt even phase me, front push/chatter makes me nervous as all hell but at least I know the rear is planted when it is happening. I think soft traction on both wheels at the same time would require me to clean my leathers.

[butcher bergs]

Ride the track on a cold day. Two wheel drifts aren't difficult to initiate but they sure are scary as hell the first few times.

[JohnnyV]

Clearly you've never seen Gary McCoy ride.

Garry McCoy Drift - Yamaha Red Bull - YouTube

Garry McCoy DRIFT !! - YouTube

Garry McCoy sliding a ducati - YouTube

Don't mind the ghey music on one of the vids.

The rear wheel spinning at a modest % faster than forward motion yields the most acceleration. The rear tire on most big bikes is usually spinning under hard acceleration, so much so the tire itself will often spin around the wheel (we saw this when Laverty was testing his AMA Superbike at VIR with us a couple years back).

Along with McCoy, I also used to love watching Gibernau throw into a corner sideways...

Sete Gibernau - derapata.avi - YouTube

[JudyGT]

Along with McCoy, I also used to love watching Gibernau throw into a corner sideways...

Sete Gibernau - derapata.avi - YouTube

Aww I miss Mr "give it up now"
Him and rossi were my entertainment until max got involved.

[Eddie]

besides the amazing skill, is it anything more than showing off?
arent you actually moving slower since you dont have a steady line? JW

Not a matter of showing off. Casey drift on the Repsol lap after lap throughout many races this year and the previous seasons when he was on the Desmo while leaving the rest of the pack way behind. That goes to say something about lap times.

[PainfullySlow]

Clearly you've never seen Gary McCoy ride.


The rear wheel spinning at a modest % faster than forward motion yields the most acceleration. The rear tire on most big bikes is usually spinning under hard acceleration, so much so the tire itself will often spin around the wheel (we saw this when Laverty was testing his AMA Superbike at VIR with us a couple years back).

Yeah I have seen McCoy and although he was getting a few front slides (honestly never really noticed that until these videos) it is primarily rear wheel spin. Hell, I can do that on my SV :-p Still there is an amazing talent there and he most definitely was pushing both at a few points.

Ride the track on a cold day. Two wheel drifts aren't difficult to initiate but they sure are scary as hell the first few times.

I guess I just tend to take it easy, maybe thats why I lose so much :-p

I realize the physics of sliding are fairly simple, I guess I just didnt really pay enough attention to it before the advent of TC bikes to really make an educated opinion. I stand corrected...now I just need to figure out how to do it without crashing :-p

[Eddie]

No disrespect guys but McCoy's sliding was nowhere near what Casey was doing. Sure as hell they made some interesting finding about tires as a matter of observing McCoy. But it has also been said that McCoy did too much of it - to a point that it wasn't necessarily making him faster.

Not only is Casey doing it at almost full lean but, to my observation, it seem that his sliding is due to throttle input upon hitting the apex and initiating the turn exit.

[Eddie]

In slow-mo:

High Speed cornering with Casey Stoner at 1000 FPS - YouTube

[Eddie]

Casey Stoner Powerslide - YouTube

[Eddie]

Speaking of Casey. Simmoncelli reminded me of Casey back in 2006 when he was on the LRC Honda:

Casey was fast and everyone was talking about him, however, he just could not manage to stay on the bike.

[scottieducati]

LOL, Eddie... I think the OP was getting at the full lean slides are now possible with TC. McCoy literally brought the advent of sliding a motorcycle to a completely new level. So much so it yielded a fundamental shift in tire technology and construction.

Gary also did it on 500GP's, no (or primitive) TC, viscous power delivery, etc. You can't even begin to compare.

I am not discounting Stoner, he is an amazing talent. But to say his abilities to slide a motorcycle eclipse McCoy, well.. that's a stretch at best. The full-lean sliding in slow-mo is impressive for sure, but it's a combination of throttle control and electronics that make it possible, you would not see that kind of sliding on a 500... at least not consistently. The bike would simply rip the riders' head off if you were at that limit for that long with no electronic safety net.

Just MHO, of course.

No disrespect guys but McCoy's sliding was nowhere near what Casey was doing. Sure as hell they made some interesting finding about tires as a matter of observing McCoy. But it has also been said that McCoy did too much of it - to a point that it wasn't necessarily making him faster.

Not only is Casey doing it at almost full lean but, to my observation, it seem that his sliding is due to throttle input upon hitting the apex and initiating the turn exit.

[Eddie]

Of course Scottie. I am too a McCoy fan . I too realize that he was sliding on a two stroke 500cc.

While I do not have first hand experience with traction control system, I do understand that modern traction control systems allow for fine tuning of rear end spin relative to front wheel rotation.

That being said, it is also been said the Stoner was the first champion of the electronics generation. Whilst traction control allowed for higher cornering speed, Rossi in the other hand did not appreciate it that much claiming that these electronics took away from sportsmanship.

Point is, which might be the same thing you are saying, is that Stoner can slide that hell out of the 800s, traction control or not.

LOL, Eddie... I think the OP was getting at the full lean slides are now possible with TC. McCoy literally brought the advent of sliding a motorcycle to a completely new level. So much so it yielded a fundamental shift in tire technology and construction.

Gary also did it on 500GP's, no (or primitive) TC, viscous power delivery, etc. You can't even begin to compare.

I am not discounting Stoner, he is an amazing talent. But to say his abilities to slide a motorcycle eclipse McCoy, well.. that's a stretch at best. The full-lean sliding in slow-mo is impressive for sure, but it's a combination of throttle control and electronics that make it possible, you would not see that kind of sliding on a 500... at least not consistently. The bike would simply rip the riders' head off if you were at that limit for that long with no electronic safety net.

Just MHO, of course.

[Chippertheripper]

Mike, you must not be feeling it. There's no way you can run teens and not slide around a bit. Up and over the hill, wfo in the 7 area, your shit is drifting a bit.

[PainfullySlow]

Mike, you must not be feeling it. There's no way you can run teens and not slide around a bit. Up and over the hill, wfo in the 7 area, your shit is drifting a bit.

Oh I am definitely feeling it, as i said it just scares the crap out of me but I dont think I am pushing both at the same time. Rear coming out of corners, front going into them to apex typically. Either that or i am too freaked out by the front moving around that I just dont feel the rear all that much at that time.

Oddly enough the bike feels super planted going over the hill and in the 7-8 stretch other than a little headshake.

[butcher bergs]

I guess I just tend to take it easy, maybe thats why I lose so much :-p

I realize the physics of sliding are fairly simple, I guess I just didnt really pay enough attention to it before the advent of TC bikes to really make an educated opinion. I stand corrected...now I just need to figure out how to do it without crashing :-p

Quite honestly Mike, I wouldn't plan on two-wheel drifting very much at all at NHMS. I just dont see it as a track layout that would lend to such a riding style since it's mostly point-n-shoot. Sure, things are moving around a bit but it would be completely pointless to develop that riding style like that at that track.

I say this realizing I'm not running 11's but I've never seen any of the top-running Experts doing it.

[Tricklidz]

The lack of tire smoke during slides shows TC doing it's job of precise rear wheelspin control. Casey is great at it, but I've seen NH and VR both do the same (albiet, to lesser degrees) on the Duc. Maybe the Honda has a more advanced, dialed system.....maybe Casey likes more slide (it's sure as hell doesn't hurt his lap times)....maybe, maybe...
The 1000 should slide more---CS's slides were about the same during the last test---but he's prolly just playing!
Loved the oldschool smoke shows, but them days is gone! Different era/bikes/powerband/etc!! Gib. was also good.
BTW- tests showed that the tire showed no ill effects of the old time sliding as only the outter most rubber would heat up and quickly cool.
I say---bring back the slides!!! We need some excitement!!

[tls25rs]

It was pretty cool to watch Eric Bostrom the last time the AMA guys ran at Loudon take the 11, 11A, entrance to 12 as one sweeping drifting lefthand corner. He would come down the chute from turn 10 into 11, throw the bike over to his prefered lean angle then drift out around the curbing that comes in from the left until the point where he was flipping it right into 12.

Most racers that I have watched go through there seem to take an intial left for 11, straighten up a little then tighten it up at the point where the curbing comes in from the left. Bostrom would just take 11 hard enough to stay leaned over and drift out to where he wanted to be for the entrance to 12. Awesome to watch. I think Mladin was doing it that way as well just not to the extreme that E Boz was.

Joel

[PainfullySlow]

Quite honestly Mike, I wouldn't plan on two-wheel drifting very much at all at NHMS. I just dont see it as a track layout that would lend to such a riding style since it's mostly point-n-shoot. Sure, things are moving around a bit but it would be completely pointless to develop that riding style like that at that track.

I say this realizing I'm not running 11's but I've never seen any of the top-running Experts doing it.

heh, yeah drifting falls under that "hmm, that would be cool" category but I much prefer to keep myself firmly planted. Unless there is some actual reason for me to be doing it (improving times) then I can assure you I have no intention of drifting at all. That there is some scary stuff. I guess we will see what next year brings as I (hopefully) improve my lap times.

[Eddie]

McCoy literally brought the advent of sliding a motorcycle to a completely new level. So much so it yielded a fundamental shift in tire technology and construction.

BTW- tests showed that the tire showed no ill effects of the old time sliding as only the outter most rubber would heat up and quickly cool

For example, to your point Scottie, what lidz stated above was something that they found out by monitoring McCoy tire wear. Ironically, when new grippier tire technology was introduced McCoy struggled a lot as his tires would hook during slides resulting in a number of high-sides.

I suppose that what everyone is saying pretty much is that sliding does not necessary make you faster, however, at the speeds that these guys ride sliding is more of an effect rather than the cause.

[Slowpoke387]

I suppose that what everyone is saying pretty much is that sliding does not necessary make you faster, however, at the speeds that these guys ride sliding is more of an effect rather than the cause.

My take on it is that it usually being a sweeper, they don't have to brake, point and shoot and so they can go in much hotter. Also being a sweeper it's wide enough to get away with a crazy hot entry allowing for a turning drift and gives the option of getting on the gas sooner. So maybe for the few elite guys it is faster.
I know using the rear wheel spinning up out of the turns was always said to not help lap times but maybe the fastest guys use the full drift a little differently than the old rear tire spinning method. I mean Stoner is crushing the field laptime-wise doing it.

[Tricklidz]

For example, to your point Scottie, what lidz stated above was something that they found out by monitoring McCoy tire wear. Ironically, when new grippier tire technology was introduced McCoy struggled a lot as his tires would hook during slides resulting in a number of high-sides.

I suppose that what everyone is saying pretty much is that sliding does not necessary make you faster, however, at the speeds that these guys ride sliding is more of an effect rather than the cause.

McCoy was/is a speedway racer, they do nothing BUT go sideways.