Can you teach fast?

[Alvecchio]

Good teachers can help us identify our capabilities, but cannot change how fundementally capable we are.

On my first track day when I was told the basics of cornering, one of the things I remember thinking was stay on the pegs and off the bars. I THOUGHT I knew what this meant. Initially I was putting a little pressure on the pegs and trying not to lean on the bars too much (but still grabbing them tightly). Then it started raining and the track was soaked, meanwhile I got bumped to the intermediate group and it was my first time out with them. I felt like I couldn't keep up. If I started to increase my speed even slightly the bike would start to slide in a way that I would compare to the feeling you get when going really fast on a roller skate. In several places the tires actually slipped out a bit, scaring the absolute shit out of me. But how was everyone else going so fast? I was scared shitless.

It was then that I realized that I was dead wrong about what I THOUGHT my instructor meant. Stay on the pegs pretty much means stand up but not quite, and stay off the bars means as little input as possible, as in almost letting go of them but not quite once you are in the turn. I then started squatting over the seat, leaving just enough pressure on my ass to keep me still while using my knee to hold me in place, and almost let go of the bars after I set the bike into the turn. The difference was night and day and keeping up was no longer a problem.

A truly talented person might not have needed that session in the rain, hell they may not even need an instructor to tell them. Their sheer talent may lead them to understand this technique simply by riding the bike and noticing how it feels. On the other hand, someone with zero talent might never be able to understand those concepts regardless of how well it is explained to them.

A good instructor can help us in areas we struggle by explaining them in a way that is easier to understand, but in the end its our own talent that leads to us figuring it out. More talented people figure things out faster with less assitance. They can also understand things at a level that most of us never will.

What you're describing sounds more like a miscommunication/misunderstanding that could have been easily prevented in the first place.

A good instructor is able to find the reason that people can't "get it". This takes more intelligence than anything in the learning process because you basically need to find problems that people don't know they have. The true root of the problem that is.

What if your instructor had specified to you, balls of your feet supporting your weight on the pegs to give you more stability. Loose shoulders and elbows and smooth inputs with your hands to keep from transferring front end movement through your body. Would you have still needed that rain? Or to be more of a "natural"?

I believe that anything an instructor tells a student should include the word "because" somewhere.

[csmutty]

Fast is not important. Ride your own ride my friend.

Is that your excuse?

[Ken C]

At the risk of sounding like I'm trying to sell something, I think it's worth mentioning the benefit of one-on-one instruction.

"Free" instruction that comes with the cost of a track day is effective to a point, but there is a lot to be said for having an instructor focus on just you. A one-on-one instructor can help newer riders to become more comfortable, and for experienced riders to learn about things they never realized was going on about their riding, which is the key to breaking through plateaus.

Another benefit a rider enjoys with one-on-one instruction is focus and motivation, which is a key part of learning. Any time you pay for something, you are more motivated to do your part to facilitate learning.

Even though the likelihood of success is greater, there are times when you can get as much, or more out of a free group lesson. There are also times when paying for an organized class doesn't pay off. You hope for a good instructor and for the ideal combination of other factors to occur, but it doesn't always happen.

[darkduc7]

When are you going to show it?

doc sucks

[Paul_E_D]

Really?! You guys never get the noob with the fastest this and that, and the nicest gear and nic-nac paddywhacks that bins it in the first or second session? Or maybe even signs up for the pro school and bins it during that too? Or the dude with the carbon everything that puts his scoot in the gravel? Surely you've heard of these cats that'll motor right by the dude on the (slow bike) that'll hold everyone up in the first corner he comes to, only to motor on again.
(don't take this personally, these dudes exist at all events)

We get those guys, but when I cruise the garages, I'm stunned by the number of dedicated trackday workhorse type bikes we get. We have a LOT of repeat/regular customers. We also have a good number of guys on the latest and greatest who more than hold their own out there. That leaves the number of eye popping bikes with newbs on board in the margins.

We have created a certain culture at our days. One of wanting to ride better. Even our instructors/control riders are learning from each other (and from students), and it trickles down. I think the guy who believes he has nothing to learn feels out of place quickly.

[Paul_E_D]

When the only passing zoned are the straights(red group rider), yea, it's not my fault. My little er6n isn't getting past a 1098 on the straights. I didn't necessarily mean that there are a lot of those people at the track. I more meant just people in the dealer.

Ya, gotcha. One thing about smaller bikes that I've learned (I'm always on a smaller bike) is that if I do the same thing as that big bike that's frustrating me, it wall last all session. That is, if I hammer it on every straight behind him I will simply accordian around the track not able to pass. However, If I ease it back on the straights, I give myself more room to work on my corner speed. If I can up my corner speed just 2 mph in every turn, then I will pass the guy and leave him behind.

It's a give and take out there. We ask the guys on fast bikes to ease out of it on the straights, but the guys on slow bikes may need to do the same so the session can flow. There's nothing slower than a session where EVERYONE is charging the corners.

[Chippertheripper]

We get those guys, but when I cruise the garages, I'm stunned by the number of dedicated trackday workhorse type bikes we get. We have a LOT of repeat/regular customers. We also have a good number of guys on the latest and greatest who more than hold their own out there. That leaves the number of eye popping bikes with newbs on board in the margins.

We have created a certain culture at our days. One of wanting to ride better. Even our instructors/control riders are learning from each other (and from students), and it trickles down. I think the guy who believes he has nothing to learn feels out of place quickly.

This is probaly the best sales pitch ever. And it wasn't even a sales pitch. I have alot of respect for this approach.

[OreoGaborio]

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Can't even begin to tell ya how true that is

Even our instructors/control riders are learning from each other (and from students), and it trickles down.

[Alvecchio]

Ya, gotcha. One thing about smaller bikes that I've learned (I'm always on a smaller bike) is that if I do the same thing as that big bike that's frustrating me, it wall last all session. That is, if I hammer it on every straight behind him I will simply accordian around the track not able to pass. However, If I ease it back on the straights, I give myself more room to work on my corner speed. If I can up my corner speed just 2 mph in every turn, then I will pass the guy and leave him behind.

It's a give and take out there. We ask the guys on fast bikes to ease out of it on the straights, but the guys on slow bikes may need to do the same so the session can flow. There's nothing slower than a session where EVERYONE is charging the corners.

I did take that approach of slowing down to create some distance. The problem I found for myself was that I was not Acclimating myself to the feeling of speed in the corner. If I came faster(within safe speed) into the turn I found that carrying more speed in it didn't seem as freaky. Keep in mind I was still learning the capabilities of my bike/tires. I quickly learned that riding is largely mental and only minutely physical in comparison. I was working less on physical skills than mental skills.

[Tricklidz]

Jumping in quickly here, and yeah, I didn't have time to read all the posts, but I think I get a general idea of what's being said.
Teaching Fast? Yes, but to a point only, then it's the intangibles (sp) that have all been brought up here.
Plus, a lot of the techinques I've been taught through the years about track riding have either changed as new one's came along or debated as right between "expert" teachers over the years....remember, I'm going way back to the 80's with Keith Code @ Loudon up to the present day instructions. Heck, let's take a look at the G.O.A.T.'s (VR)style. If an expert instructor were to follow him around a track that he knows well (Like the Woods do, Loudon) they would say he has terrible technique- He doesn't look through the corner, but right in front of the bike, he doesn't weight the inside peg (hell, his foot is hanging out in the breeze) and he would most likely smoke everyone around Loudon after two or three flying laps!!!
Why? Because he has a "god" given gift! Yeah, he's been riding since he was an infant, and was wheeling scooters around Italy as a child, and prolly never took a riding lession---he just has "IT"!
He was made to ride a motorcycle fast, as many are and most are not.
Just my take. But what do I know, I even older than Manny!

[Degsy]

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I weight the outside peg.

[csmutty]

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I weight the outside peg.

I need to do this.

[CBR929RE]

fuck those guys on the EX500s and Hawks and SVs. they all think they're fast.

[nt650hawk]

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fuck those guys on the EX500s and Hawks and SVs. they all think they're fast.

Sticing my toung out. But they are fun

[Chippertheripper]

Ima just glad he likes the turd dudes.

[CBR929RE]

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Sticing my toung out. But they are fun

honestly I'd love to try one some day.

Ima just glad he likes the turd dudes.

been awhile since a turd has passed me :p

[csmutty]

honestly I'd love to try one some day.

Mine is always available. I will be at one or more of the Bomo days at NHMS next year.

[CBR929RE]

Mine is always available. I will be at one or more of the Bomo days at NHMS next year.

I'll be at 3 of them. but not really all that interested in riding a mud monkey.

[Chippertheripper]

That's ok, he'll ride you.

[CBR929RE]

That's ok, he'll ride you.

he can ride my bike if he promises to behave but he cannot ride me. that offer is not even on the table.

[csmutty]

I'll be at 3 of them. but not really all that interested in riding a mud monkey.

Meant my EX500 or motard.

[CBR929RE]

Meant my EX500 or motard.

didn't know you still had the EX. its a deal.

[csmutty]

didn't know you still had the EX. its a deal.

Ask Greg, he loved riding an EX

[CBR929RE]

Ask Greg, he loved riding an EX

ah yes
yup yup yup I remember that story. I still think you're all lying about him 12ing it

[csmutty]

ah yes
yup yup yup I remember that story. I still think you're all lying about him 12ing it

I don't think any of his riding experience transferred to Dan's bike. It's easier to start on a shitty bike and move up, not the other way around.