Front End Swap VS cartridges

[SVRACER01]

i agree with pete. locally, Scott is your best sounding board for ideas about whats best. on an international level, you need to find someone that races or has raced at IOMTT on a Kawi 650.

my personal opinion is, if swaps are allowed, then do it. better brakes, and more adjustability seems like a no brainer to me.

[OreoGaborio]

Agreed.

With a swap you may run into serious chatter problems like Scott experienced. He played with that ZX front end all damn year & finally went back to the stock front end. BUT you won't be pushing front tire traction at IOM the way Scott does around Loudon and you may not be on the same tires, either. So you may not have those same chatter issues which would mean the adjustability & brakes would probably be worth doing the swap.

That said, what's adjustability & marginally better brakes worth? The ZX forks are also (I'm guessing?) heavier...

Best way to find out is talk to those that actually have the experience.

[Paul_E_D]

Agreed.

With a swap you may run into serious chatter problems like Scott experienced. He played with that ZX front end all damn year & finally went back to the stock front end. .

Really? That's so funny. ZXs are notorious for chatter. I assumed it was a frame issue, but swapping the forks onto an EX causes the same thing. Hmmmm.... I assume he runs Dunlops though. THose things are super prone to chatter to start with.

Do SVs encounter chatter with GSXR swaps?

I think the EX650 can handle at near GP bike levels with the stock forks. Brakes aren't as important on a bike that requires lots of momentum and entry speed to go fast. You don't have to exchange as much energy going into the turns, so super duper efficient brakes aren't needed. In fact they will slow most people down IMO.

[OreoGaborio]

Really? That's so funny. ZXs are notorious for chatter. I assumed it was a frame issue, but swapping the forks onto an EX causes the same thing. Hmmmm.... I assume he runs Dunlops though. THose things are super prone to chatter to start with.

Do SVs encounter chatter with GSXR swaps?

I think the EX650 can handle at near GP bike levels with the stock forks. Brakes aren't as important on a bike that requires lots of momentum and entry speed to go fast. You don't have to exchange as much energy going into the turns, so super duper efficient brakes aren't needed. In fact they will slow most people down IMO.

Yeah, Scott runs Dunlops which are more prone to chatter than other brands. It's possible the ZX front end work work well on the 650 with a different sneaker.

Not sure about SV chatter to be honest with you. A lot of people say that the GSXR front end is a little too stiff (2nd gen in particular with its flexier frame), but there's also a lot of riders that do the swap with positive results and prefer it over stock. I'm sure there's a crap ton of variables that go into it that you can't really account for... gotta try & it n figure out if it works for you or if it doesn't.

[Chippertheripper]

No offense taken petah. I haven't ridden a swapped front end 650r.
A worked stock front end is certainly good for higher than the level Sav is at right now, and that's about the extent of my knowledge/assumptions.

[OreoGaborio]

Yeah I really think either front end would do everything its asked of it.

IMO - go with the more budget friendly set-up.

[Paul_E_D]

Off topic but tangentially related:

I rode Kurtz' EX and Rada's SV back to back and pushing pretty fricken hard at NCBIKE. It was enlightening. Rada's set up was at the extreme end of stiff (spring wise), and Kurtz' was much more in my wheelhouse. Rada has a steering damper, Kurtz does not.

The EX was immediately easier to turn, and loves to be cranked all the way over. Handles amazingly when on the edge of the tire. It's much narrower and lower COG than the SV. It was quite a bit less stable than Rada's SV though, and at this high speed track, I think that was a penalty. I went off track in the high speed final turn and had a WILD ride through the grass. I didn't quite get a precise line going in and I spun and drifted a little wide, and that was that.

Rada's bike was a puzzle to me. In the first lap I thought, "I can't ride this thing, it won't turn". But I stayed out there, and began trail braking into the turns to get the bike laid over. Once I did that, it was stable as a rock mid corner, and I could open the gas WOT without losing my line. The wider tank and frame actually made it easier to relax at max lean angle. I was not working hard at all to go fast on it. The bumps would set me sideways a bit though.

On that track, on that day, a SUPER stiff SV was my pick. At Loudon I have preferred the EX.

[tsorfas]

Interesting input on the brakes Paul.

Based on what spears has told me the ex is a better bike on long open tracks. So it's actually weird you d pick it for loudon instead of SC.

Also some of those damn things geometry is changed sooo much it's not even the same bike any more. Talking about cut off and widened frames, swing arms and front end.

[Paul_E_D]

In my experience, a 600 needs super duper brakes as it is coming in with a good head of steam, and it's HEAVY. Some extra stopping power can get you out of hairy situations.

The little bikes momentum is quickly overpowered by good brakes. I learned entry speed because the brakes on the EX weren't good enough to slow the bike at a certain point. No choice but to enter faster...

I have kind of the opposite opinion regarding the two bikes. Although, I'm certain that Rada's ultra stiff springs were giving the bike so much trail with my skinny ass on it. That was making it more stable at speed. In general though, a low COG is easier to turn, but a little less stable. So that is the nature of the EX vs the SV no matter what. I'm curious exactly why Spears says that. Any more insight?

[tsorfas]

Savvas,
well the reason is that roadracing in Europe (IOTT,Manx,UlsherGP) are nothing like anything we have here in the states, the roads are SO open and the sv is an ok platform the er is just better...higher reving and more like a inline 4....if you go to my website and see the dyno sheet, our dealer in Germany sent me a sheet....92 RWHP.......that is a lot....I see and get mid 80's low 90's out of our kits.....the er does not have off of the corner torque and here in this country is just is better


that was the response I got

[Paul_E_D]

Ah, the motor, yes, that is more suited to revving. THat is ironic since the chasis is better suited to tighter tracks.

[SVRACER01]

the only place ive gotten chatter in the front is Calabogie and i think that was just because i was set up too stiff for such a smooth track.
i rear end chatter at CT on the last turn. i attributed that to possible rear tire or again suspension settings.
at slow speeds my SV feels like a bulldozer, once its up and "on plane" it handles much better

[burnham]

Hey Savvas there's an article in the July '14 issue of Performance Bikes magazine on KMR Kawasaki. The guy (Ryan Farquhar) builds and races his own Kawasaki 650s, races IOM. They go into some detail on what he does to the bikes.

[Rada]

As far as brakes are concerned. I think that if you go with a well set-up stock front end you will get plenty of brake power. If you really want you can adapt radial calipers to the stock front end. But a Brembo MC and good pads will make it stop well.

Paul makes a good point about bringing some spring options with you when you go to the TT.

Realistically I can't imagine the TT course being much more demanding than NHMS. NHMS is a rough demanding place. Granted the TT will be much higher speed.

As mentioned before, PK and SM are going to be your best source.

[tsorfas]

This one?

[burnham]

This one?

No. I probably won't do this right.


- - - Updated - - -

Oh fuck yeah I did that shit right bitches.

[tsorfas]

Thanks man that's very helpful

[Paul_E_D]

As far as brakes are concerned. I think that if you go with a well set-up stock front end you will get plenty of brake power. If you really want you can adapt radial calipers to the stock front end. But a Brembo MC and good pads will make it stop well.

Paul makes a good point about bringing some spring options with you when you go to the TT.

Realistically I can't imagine the TT course being much more demanding than NHMS. NHMS is a rough demanding place. Granted the TT will be much higher speed.

As mentioned before, PK and SM are going to be your best source.

The bumps are big at loudon... for a closed course. But my guess is that the bumps at the TT make loudon feel like plate glass.

[Kurlon]

The bumps are big at loudon... for a closed course. But my guess is that the bumps at the TT make loudon feel like plate glass.

That matches my impression from vids/etc of riders and crews discussing trying to setup for the TT. Sounds like the end game is to come up with something that's at worst mediocre everywhere because there is so much variation that you can't setup for one scenario alone.

[gmdboston]

actually i think this from the 650 forum answers it pretty well for me:

My dear new Forum Friend,

Welcome to the Ridersforum! Woot Woot!

Getting right down to business......... Lets keep the issue clear: No Pre Load is adjustable with the K-tecks. The wonderful folks at K-tek, found a market niche for SV's and Ninjas. We all love buying these new and second hand. But remember, our suspensions are 1970's design. So.......... Could you drop the ktecks in? Yes. Could you figure out your spring rate within 5 kg/mm? Probably.

If you think you can work with the 5 different spring rates offered by K-teck: Go For It! I strongly suggest you figure out what Sag your looking to achieve, prior to purchase as the spring rates in this setup will determine your sag. Their is no pre-load adjustment.

Also, Food For thought: Our tubes are narrow as compared to any USD fork, and having a compression damper in one side and a rebound damper in the other side may contribute to Fork Twist.....

Since I have not personally tested, installed, raced or even experienced this product, many of us would be interested in your success and write up. Pictures Please! Woot Woot

Also, I loved the giddy up and nimbleness of the Ninja 500's too! Kind of miss them! Stupidly easy to maintain....Mods? Springs and a sprocket and See ya!

Cheers.

Bradmeister


Looks like front end swap it is?

Sav, this guy is wrong with every statement.


Getting right down to business......... Lets keep the issue clear: No Pre Load is adjustable with the K-tecks. Yes they are, 12 mm socket.


The wonderful folks at K-tek, found a market niche for SV's and Ninjas. We all love buying these new and second hand. But remember, our suspensions are 1970's design. Actually the 40's.

So.......... Could you drop the ktecks in? Yes. No, some machining is required.


Could you figure out your spring rate within 5 kg/mm? Probably. 5 KG???? How about 0.05. And they have rates from .70 through 1.20 in .05 Kg/mm increments. That makes for 11 rates in 0.05 kg/mm increments and over 22 if you split rate (use a .95/1.0 to get a .975) in 0.025 Kg/mm increments.

If you think you can work with the 5 different spring rates offered by K-teck: Go For It! I strongly suggest you figure out what Sag your looking to achieve, prior to purchase as the spring rates in this setup will determine your sag. Their is no pre-load adjustment. This is NEVER the way to select a spring rate.

Also, Food For thought: Our tubes are narrow as compared to any USD fork, Really? EX 650 and SV's have 41 mm stantion tubes. Same as: R6 06+, GSXR 600 06+, GSXR 750 06+, ZX 6R 03+, CBR 600RR 05+, Triumph 675 06+, and dozens of others from 1991 through 2015. The inverted fork front ends get their rigidity from two areas. First is the increased clamping area of the triple clamps. Conventional forks have the same diameter top and bottom and is the same as the fork stantion diameter (41/41) inverted clamp diameters are more like 50-52 top and 52-56 bottom. Also the tube wall thickness has a tremendous impact as well. I can tell you (with out naming names) that in the heyday of the Supersport wars, certain factory teams had several wall thicknesses to choose from at the track.

and having a compression damper in one side and a rebound damper in the other side may contribute to Fork Twist..... I'll be brief about this one, pure unadulterated bullshit. Well unless you are using a wooden stick for an axle, then yes, it will.

Since I have not personally tested, installed, raced or even experienced this product, many of us would be interested in your success and write up. Pictures Please! Woot Woot This is typical of the internet experts. No experience with a product or service, no expertise in the field, and not even a test ride, but "here is everything wrong with xxxx." And this is where I get my cynicism from.

[gmdboston]

If you want educatin, DON'T rely on the bike specific forums. Those sites seem full of more bullshit than a field in Spain.

Ask some proven racers, Oh, I see someone suggested that already!

Pre-load and sag are not the be all end all of setup as that long quote implies.

Amen.

[Kurlon]

I believe we can close this thread now.

[gmdboston]

I believe we can close this thread now.

Please.

[TheIglu]

I hear that a front end swap from a '87 Taurus is the hot setup.

[Kurlon]

I hear that a front end swap from a '87 Taurus is the hot setup.

But only with a GSXR rear brake master.