2015 Track Days Postings

[Ductard]

And that's why I've never heard anybody tell anyone "DON'T USE WARMERS!"

Again, only time I have a problem with warmers is when it becomes a prohibiting factor for a rider looking to attend an event (anywhere with anyone... not just TTD)

I do 1, maybe 2 warm up laps before I start rearlly bookin... so... certainly not upwards of a THIRD of my day. 5% of my day? maybe?

If a reasonable time for a "warmup lap"was 1:30 or higher, 2 laps per 15 minute session is 20% of your time. That's assuming that you're at grid for the session start, you're off the track no earlier than 15:00 (not really realistic), and that there are no red flags.

So I'd say 1/3 of the day is probably closer to the truth than 5%

[xxaarraa]

Haven't read the whole thread so someone might have pointed this out. I think of warmers as being more useful on pit in than pit out. Purely because of their ability to minimize heat cycles throughout the day. What this means to me: tire life. I don't get race contingency, I'm not a dealer and I pay full retail price for my expensive tires. I'll run warmers if they help me get another couple days out of a set.

[TTD]

Depending who you talk to, heat cycling is a thing of the past. The tire will wear out due to use before it wears out due to heat cycling.

[xxaarraa]

Depending who you talk to, heat cycling is a thing of the past. The tire will wear out due to use before it wears out due to heat cycling.

Even for the soft race compounds?

[SVRACER01]

Wirelessly posted (GS3)

For me it depends on the track. Someplace thats hard to pass ,like Thompson or nyst, I like fewer people. NHMS has so many places to pass that I prefer longer sessions. Of course im basing this on me riding a slow bike, but realistically, nhms is a slow bike friendly track.

[TTD]

Even for the soft race compounds?

Yes.

It's not going to hurt to leave them on warmers between sessions of trackdays - but it's not going to extend the life either.

[SVRACER01]

Wirelessly posted (GS3)

Warmers are pretty insulated. If you tbrow them on as soon as you come in and leave them unplugged, the tires will still hold a lot of heat

[Ductard]

Haven't read the whole thread so someone might have pointed this out. I think of warmers as being more useful on pit in than pit out. Purely because of their ability to minimize heat cycles throughout the day. What this means to me: tire life. I don't get race contingency, I'm not a dealer and I pay full retail price for my expensive tires. I'll run warmers if they help me get another couple days out of a set.

Not sure I buy the whole heat cycles thing, unless you're pro level. I use warmers and think of reduced heat cycles as a side-benefit, so I'm sort of argureeing with you....

I probably put about a dozen track days on my motard rear tires and probably twice that number on the front. I use them until the meat is gone and I don't notice too much of a difference. At least not anything I wouldn't attribute to whole less rubber, less heat thing.

I can't imagine you get more than 6-8 days out of the tires on your Aprilia, no?

I guess I'm just writing b/c

1) It's past 1 am and I can't sleep anyways

and

2) I feel like there's a lot of exaggerated information, if not outright misinformation that is spread by the tire companies that's really more about marketing more tires to people than it is about helping people go faster...especially for people who aren't at the AMA pro level or above....

Heck, I just got my hands on a set of take-offs from a novice with a couple of races on them, ~90% remaining tread life and chicken strips about an inch wide. Maybe I should shut my mouth and let people practically give away good tires over "heat cycles"


[EDIT: Right after I let my cynicism fly, I see Tony's post debunking the heat cycle fear - not to mention my cynical post. Thanks for spreading good info, Tony]

[xxaarraa]

Not sure I buy the whole heat cycles thing, unless you're pro level. I use warmers and think of reduced heat cycles as a side-benefit, so I'm sort of argureeing with you....

I probably put about a dozen track days on my motard rear tires and probably twice that number on the front. I use them until the meat is gone and I don't notice too much of a difference. At least not anything I wouldn't attribute to whole less rubber, less heat thing.

I can't imagine you get more than 6-8 days out of the tires on your Aprilia, no?

I guess I'm just writing b/c

1) It's past 1 am and I can't sleep anyways

and

2) I feel like there's a lot of exaggerated information, if not outright misinformation that is spread by the tire companies that's really more about marketing more tires to people than it is about helping people go faster...especially for people who aren't at the AMA pro level or above....

Heck, I just got my hands on a set of take-offs from a novice with a couple of races on them, ~90% remaining tread life and chicken strips about an inch wide. Maybe I should shut my mouth and let people practically give away good tires over "heat cycles"


[EDIT: Right after I let my cynicism fly, I see Tony's post debunking the heat cycle fear - not to mention my cynical post. Thanks for spreading good info, Tony]

I think talking about tires is a bit like talking about oil - everyone's biases and opinions are sort of based on fact, it all comes down to what the individual person is comfortable with. Having said that, g00gle up heat cycling race tires and there are a few reputable links that pop up and walk you through the theory (take them with a grain of salt).

I should restate my bias/belief - I think warmers minimize heat cycling, and that increases tire life. BUT not because it causes the rubber to wear slowly, but because it helps retain more of the oils within the rubber, as the rubber wears. Said another way, the quantity of meat left in the rubber is not as relevant as the health of the rubber. How a race tire performs on the 5th track day could be different than how it performs on the 1st day, even if it has enough meat left on it - that's my belief.

Besides, I don't want to trivialize the benefits of warmers on pit out. If I am doing the 1st session of Day 1, I am going to be taking it easy and warming up my tires slowly anyway. But on the 6th session of Day 2 (I know you "season pass people" never do 6 sessions in a day ), its silly to be spending 2-3 laps warming up my tires. 90% of my riding this year was two consecutive days, where the benefits of not having to wait for your tires to warm up before getting on it was very worthwhile.

[Ductard]

Yeah, I forgot to mention that I did google heat cycling. Haven't delved too deeply yet but the first couple links were for companies that auto cross guys will PAY to heat cycle their tires (supposedly cross-links the polymers to do a real slow cycle)

Those cagies are so weird. And they spend more money on more useless shit than even we do.... :-)

[Woodcraft]

From the mouths of the engineers at Dunlop, the tires seem to maintain grip longer when they are allowed to cool more slowly (wrap up the tire on a warmer right after a session). I've been told that it has an effect on the molecular structure of the tire, similar to what happens with many metals when cooled slowly or quickly.

[xxaarraa]

From the mouths of the engineers at Dunlop, the tires seem to maintain grip longer when they are allowed to cool more slowly (wrap up the tire on a warmer right after a session). I've been told that it has an effect on the molecular structure of the tire, similar to what happens with many metals when cooled slowly or quickly.

BAM!

[SVRACER01]

thats what i always did when racing. even if i didnt have another race that day, the warmers went on after the race

[csmutty]

BAM!

Do you ever see anyone doing it? Not that I've noticed.

[Chippertheripper]

Do you ever see anyone doing it? Not that I've noticed.

Lots of people. Come in, put the warmers on (unplugged) if you don't need to go back out for a while.

I did it, and lots of others do/did to.

[nhbubba]

I plan to start doing it. Why not?

[csmutty]

Lots of people. Come in, put the warmers on (unplugged) if you don't need to go back out for a while.

I did it, and lots of others do/did to.

Point being i don't think its a noticeable difference. If you are at a point where it'd make a difference your tires shouldn't be lasting long enough for you to find out anyways.

[Chippertheripper]

Ahh I see. Yeah, you're probably right. The rears for certain. I could get a couple lifetimes out of a front on a tard/lw, so maybe it'll help prolong some life.

[csmutty]

Ahh I see. Yeah, you're probably right. The rears for certain. I could get a couple lifetimes out of a front on a tard/lw, so maybe it'll help prolong some life.

You might as well just have the front end in the air the whole time in the tard haha. Front doesn't have any weight anyways. Agreed on the front tire life though.

[xxaarraa]

Point being i don't think its a noticeable difference. If you are at a point where it'd make a difference your tires shouldn't be lasting long enough for you to find out anyways.

As I said before, on topics such as this, the "I don't think" is the operative phrase. Dunlop engineers/people Eric Wood hangs with/plenty of others seem to have a different opinion.

You are perfectly entitled to your opinion, I just choose to do differently.

[TTD]

I could agree with the letting them cool down slower, although not too slowly. Time spent at max temp will also degrade the tire.

My main point is that the difference in grip and longevity will be minimal and/or imperceptible to the average track day rider.

If you have extra cash for warmers, stands, electricity - then go for it... certainly won't hurt.

If you have to decide between paying for tracktime and warmers... or new rubber and warmers... then I'd say warmers take a back seat.

Good rubber, tracktime, instruction, and suspension are 4 things I'd put in front of tire warmer purchase.

[csmutty]

As I said before, on topics such as this, the "I don't think" is the operative phrase. Dunlop engineers/people Eric Wood hangs with/plenty of others seem to have a different opinion.

You are perfectly entitled to your opinion, I just choose to do differently.

Haha ok. I just think there are 3 million more important things you should be worried about. And they are talking about a scientific level. Whether or not you can notice it...impossible.