The fine art of turning ?

[Paul_E_D]

We're talking about a race track. The whole point is to go in as hot as you can. Nothing I mentioned is really wrong for the street either. Just done at much slower speeds, and with less pressure on the brakes.

I'm well studied on Code, and he's a bit conflicted himself on the trailbraking topic. I think its just to be different from his competitiors, but when pressed, he admits to using the brakes while leaning in.

The quicker you lean, the less trail braking is needed, but it's still important as it keeps the front end planted instead of pogoing. If you let off the breaks straight up and down, the front end rises, then you flick, and the front dives, reach max lean and it rises again. By trailing the front brake into the turn in step, you avoid the up and down motion, and gain control and confidence.

[Kham]

If you let off the breaks straight up and down, the front end rises, then you flick, and the front dives, reach max lean and it rises again. By trailing the front brake into the turn in step, you avoid the up and down motion, and gain control and confidence.

why would it pogo if braking is done before turning and you're rolling on smoothly and say you're getting 40/60?

[RyanNicholson]

The quicker you lean, the less trail braking is needed, but it's still important as it keeps the front end planted instead of pogoing. If you let off the breaks straight up and down, the front end rises, then you flick, and the front dives, reach max lean and it rises again. By trailing the front brake into the turn in step, you avoid the up and down motion, and gain control and confidence.

i think thats the perfect answer for akira's original question.

[akira700]

The quicker you lean, the less trail braking is needed, but it's still important as it keeps the front end planted instead of pogoing. If you let off the breaks straight up and down, the front end rises, then you flick, and the front dives, reach max lean and it rises again. By trailing the front brake into the turn in step, you avoid the up and down motion, and gain control and confidence.

ding ! That's the idea I'm trying to get at. I see it as one down and up motion through the whole turn.

So if you were looking at an onboard camera at your front shock
you would see a gradual then rapid compression then a gradual
release as you release the brake then transition into the rear tire as
you roll on the throttle. So when someone says smooth this is one aspect of that. Your bike front is not pogoing up and down but just going down and then going up.

[RyanNicholson]

akira....go to borders or something and flip through "a twist of the wrist"....it explains it really well. you can prob just sit and read it in the store if you've got 30/45 mins free later tonight

[Kham]

akira....go to borders or something and flip through "a twist of the wrist"....it explains it really well. you can prob just sit and read it in the store if you've got 30/45 mins free later tonight

it doesn't explain trail braking in detail.

"champions are won when play by the book" - Keith Code

[akira700]

Damn, Code...?
I have
Wrist 1 and 2
and the Soft Science of
I look at these books over and over. Alot is over my head
but everytime I look at them they get me some new ideas.

funny alot of people dont like him.
But if you can get past his weird california burnout
style its really good shit. Very analytical but practical.

man, enough talk... I just wanna ride!
Ryan you coming up tomm?

[Kham]

let me get get this straight. you trail brake to keep the bike from pogo going into corner? pogoing would = lost of traction yet at max lean all braking must = zero. so it would pogo then? :confuse:

[Crash Dummy Denno]

we need more discussions like this on here

+1

This is great!

[RyanNicholson]

Damn, Code...?
I have
Wrist 1 and 2
and the Soft Science of
I look at these books over and over. Alot is over my head
but everytime I look at them they get me some new ideas.

funny alot of people dont like him.
But if you can get past his weird california burnout
style its really good shit. Very analytical but practical.

man, enough talk... I just wanna ride!
Ryan you coming up tomm?

i'll be swinging by to see PK for a bit in the afternoon, wont be riding though. I'll be riding the LAPS day on tuesday and next race weekend.

if i remember right (i've only read it once) Wrist 1 explained the balance of using the break to load the front, and fading it to the corner pressure to keep it loaded pretty well. I haven't ready any of the others yet.

[RyanNicholson]

let me get get this straight. you trail brake to keep the bike from pogo going into corner? pogoing would = lost of traction yet at max lean all braking must = zero. so it would pogo then? :confuse:

think of breaking as loading the front, then as you go into the corner you fade out the break to 0....but the corner pressure keeps the front end loaded.

VS

hitting the break, (loading)....letting go of the break (unloading)....cornering (loading) = pogo


.......from what i understand anyway

[akira700]

Kham,

Pogo-ing does not necessarily mean loss of traction unless
at the extreme. What we are talking about is more subtle,
its about having the bike move up and down just to the point of
"unsettling" the bike.

If you watched Rossi when he's not doing some crazy over
taking manouver. He's normally very smooth. So if you could see
his telemetry for his front ride height I'd bet its not a jangley zig zag
line but a smooth curve up then down. Pogoing is the zig-zag line
and this makes the bike hard to ride. On the track at the limit
"hard to ride" could mean something bad ! On the street it normally just means "man I fucked that turn up, on to the next one".

[Kham]

"pogoing" is probly wrong term then...

[OreoGaborio]

maybe you just have the wrong definition.

[kermita]

as I've never been 100% sure of what trail braking really means....are you guys saying the trail braking is just a matter of using a reasonable amount of front brake when leaned over to keep the bike more stable?

[Kham]

think of breaking as loading the front, then as you go into the corner you fade out the break to 0....but the corner pressure keeps the front end loaded.

VS

hitting the break, (loading)....letting go of the break (unloading)....cornering (loading) = pogo


.......from what i understand anyway

i understand. according to Keiths Code, the 40/60 rule is the most stable so i think when trail braking and throttling, you still get that weight distribution because it doesn't take much at all.

50/50 is coasting.

[RyanNicholson]

as I've never been 100% sure of what trail braking really means....are you guys saying the trail braking is just a matter of using a reasonable amount of front brake when leaned over to keep the bike more stable?

thats pretty much exactly it...its fading out the break as you're leaning into the corner. or still breaking in the corner while leaned over, so...yes.

[Kham]

maybe you just have the wrong definition.

thanks Pete. i can always count on you.

[Doc]

I am nowhere near Pauls level (or many of you guys since I am so slow) BUT I do it like Paul, trail brake T3,T1 , along with 6, 9, and 11. no brakes: 1a, 2, 4, 5, 7, 8, 10, 12.

At least this is what I Try to do. Sometimes I trailbrake past the apex, which is not good.

[akira700]

i understand. according to Keiths Code, the 40/60 rule is the most stable so i think when trail braking and throttling, you still get that weight distribution because it doesn't take much at all.

Negative. 40/60 rule does not mean you aim for this weight distribution
at all times. In fact there are times when 100/0 and 0/100 (or close to it)
is what you want. Come to the track already so you can experience
what this talk is really all about !

Kim, Trail braking is usually in reference to the rear brake.
that's cause touching the front brake while its leaned over
and taking the deacceleration force could put it over the
edge and cause to to break free. But more generally here we are just talking about braking (front or rear)
after tip in as you approach the apex of the turn.

I'm not at the point where I want to be using my rear brake much at all while leaned over as it could cause your rear wheel to lock which is potentially worse than the front locking.

[Kham]

In fact there are times when 0/100 (or close to it)
is what you want.

when is that? wouldn't you likely be spinning the rear at that point or wheelie off the exit?

[kermita]

Kim, Trail braking is usually in reference to the rear brake.
that's cause touching the front brake while its leaned over
and taking the deacceleration force could put it over the
edge and cause to to break free. But more generally here we are just talking about braking (front or rear)
after tip in as you approach the apex of the turn.

Ah yes.....until I started reading this I was under the impression that trail braking was using the rear brake to scrub off speed/back-into turn (dirt-track style).

[OreoGaborio]

Kim, Trail braking is usually in reference to the rear brake.

If you were to ask 10 racers if they use the front or rear to trail brake, I betcha 9 outta 10 will say front.

The word "trail" in this case is being used in the form "trailing off", not "leading" or "trailing". Most cases you're trail braking w/ the front, not the rear.

[OreoGaborio]

when is that? wouldn't you likely be spinning the rear at that point or wheelie off the exit?

when exiting a corner the goal is 100% of the weight of the bike on the rear tire to maximize traction. When braking you want 100% of the weight on the front to maximize traction.

[RyanNicholson]

You sure about that? I bet if you ask 10 racers if they use the front or rear to trail brake 9 outta 10 will say front.

The word "trail" in this case is being used in the form "trailing off", not "leading" or "trailing".

yea when i say trail i'm usually talking about breaking in general...trailing off, usually with the front. i dont use my rear too much.