Four finger braking: Yes or no?

[butcher bergs]

2 on brakes and 3 on crutch

I see what you did there.

so what's the story?

Story is I'm blown away that MSF teaches 4 finger braking. My mother and sister took the level 1 course in Concord, NH this past weekend and, while talking with both of them, braking came up in discussion. They actually MAKE the students use 4 finger braking. Looks like I'd fail miserably as I just wouldn't ever do that.

Additionally, I'm very surprised how many 4 finger brakers there are here on the forum.
I don't view 4 finger braking as particularly safe or a good habit, IMO. I'm not knocking anyone by that statement....to each their own and I respect that.

It becomes more challenging (for me anyways) to navigate the bike if I only have my thumb on the bar while I'm trying to slow the bike. Seems like it'd be better to have as much contact as possible on the bar during a braking situation because that affords me the ability to use more steering control rather than trying to steer with 4 fingers on the lever to slow the bike down and still manage consistant and smooth braking.

I used 3 finger braking for the longest time until I took the Cornerspeed class at VIR. The single biggest thing I changed with my braking habits after that class is now I use two all the time.

[Paul_E_D]

??? Your palm is still on the bar to steer with. What are the advantages to using less strength at the brake lever? I know you can stoppie with less than 4 on the brake, but That doesn't equal maximum braking.

on the track I brake so hard that I surely need all the strength I can put to the lever. If you scoot back in the seat it prevents the stoppie...

[a13x]

IMO you can't really be braking to the bikes potential with one finger with steel rotors...

Gotta disagree homie. 1098's and Hypermotards with the monobloc's 1 finger is plenty. I remember going into Turn 1 at Barber on the 1098R and the bike endo'ing into the turn and ripping my feet off the pegs due to the insane braking forces. 1 finger too....

Also only use one on my (and JayRoot's) motard's. 1 finger and I had enough power to jack the brakes and do a nice endo while trying to avoid the 125 of Alex Guibertauty (however you spell it) when he jacked the brakes in front of me (I figured a lil 125GP bike would go deeper into T3 than he did... that wasn't fun to be behind)

If I'm not on a Ducati or motard, normally use 2.


FWIW: Rossi uses 4

[Evil_Weasel]

at the track i think it comes more to personal preferance than anything else. i'm sure there are very fast guys doing it both ways.

as for the MSF. well not everyone rides a bad ass sportbike with monster front brakes. try two finger braking on a HD or large cruiser. even some small comuter bikes have shitty brakes that need a good squeeze. if they told the students that own those bikes to use only 2 fingers it would be a dissaster. where as the sportbike owning students can figure out that all the fingers aren't required on thier own.

[BCT748]

Gotta disagree homie. 1098's and Hypermotards with the monobloc's 1 finger is plenty. I remember going into Turn 1 at Barber on the 1098R and the bike endo'ing into the turn and ripping my feet off the pegs due to the insane braking forces. 1 finger too....

Also only use one on my (and JayRoot's) motard's. 1 finger and I had enough power to jack the brakes and do a nice endo while trying to avoid the 125 of Alex Guibertauty (however you spell it) when he jacked the brakes in front of me (I figured a lil 125GP bike would go deeper into T3 than he did... that wasn't fun to be behind)

If I'm not on a Ducati or motard, normally use 2.


FWIW: Rossi uses 4

Mine would take a full two fingers to do that. Must be the older tech. or maybe I just have weak fingers

[butcher bergs]

??? Your palm is still on the bar to steer with. What are the advantages to using less strength at the brake lever? I know you can stoppie with less than 4 on the brake, but That doesn't equal maximum braking.

on the track I brake so hard that I surely need all the strength I can put to the lever. If you scoot back in the seat it prevents the stoppie...

It's a stability thing. You don't control a bike with just your palms do you? While it certainly *can* be done, my question is why would you want to manage a motorcycle with you palms only?

Less braking strength? IMO, a rider can very effectively slow or stop a motorcycle using only two fingers. A rider can very well achieve maximum braking using two fingers.

Maybe I have amazing finger strength......(ladies, take note).

I've been able to stop all the bikes I've ridden using two or three fingers....that includes pre-80's bikes, bikes with drums, a handful of Harleys...hell, even the '83 KZ1100 I had.

At VIR North, two-fingering the 929 into T7 with the rear skimming, front tire just starting to howl. I'd call that maximum braking.

When I was at the last TTD I was two-fingering every corner during both days and, FWIW, a 2003 Yamaha FZ1 isn't known for its amazing braking abilities.

On the FJR, two fingers...

EDIT: I'm not suggesting that two or three finger braking is the Holy Grail, I'm trying to gain more understanding about the method of four finger braking.

[burnham]

Two fingers usually. I can get the rear wheel off the ground that way. Any time I try four I squeeze the fucking lever like it's a pair of pliers and bad things happen.

[Paul_E_D]

Well, to be honest, it's situational. I don't use four fingers all the time, but I am an MSF coach, I had to try!!!

[Nikon]

I have long fingers and big hands. I can't do a 2 finger pull on the clutch or the brake. I have to do 4 fingers.

[DucDave]

uh...it would appear, like many things in life, that the answer is IT DEPENDS...

although it is human nature to try and build a universal truth from whatever corner case suits you, what you have really built is a universal truth for yourself under certain circumstances.

Some bikes, some set-ups, some conditions, some hand sizes, some weather conditions, some, some, some...all affect how you approach riding - including braking.

The right answer is to be consistant, smooth, and appropriate for all of the above. So, sometimes 1, 2, 3, or even 4 fingers is the right answer...

And if you all continue to kick this dead horse you'll be no closer to the truth...

[butcher bergs]

I'm curious as to why the Motorcycle Safety Foundation would basically limit new riders to 4 finger braking only. It just doesn't settle well with me. That alone could possibly send the message that 4 fingers is the only way to use the front brake.

This isn't a dig on Paul or Doc or any of the other MSF instructors, but why would the MSF curriculum stress 4 finger braking and then limit a rider to that method throughout the entire weekend, regardless of bike?

I'm sure those Nighthawk and Rebel 250's can stop just fine using 2 fingers so why the limitation?

Like I said, I'd fail the MSF Course because of this very subject.

So, seriously, what's the purpose of the limitation?

And to the MSF coaches, I'm curious as to what your personal belief is on this subject. I realize your job is to convey the MSF's curriculum but don't any of you think it might be time for a change?

[butcher bergs]

Dave, my question is stemmed from the MSF's limitation of 4 finger braking.

MSF students can only brake with 4 fingers...that's what they teach.

[DucDave]

Dave, my question is stemmed from the MSF's limitation of 4 finger braking.

MSF students can only brake with 4 fingers...that's what they teach.

lowest common denominator....thats all

[ZX-12R]

I have long fingers and big hands. I can't do a 2 finger pull on the clutch or the brake. I have to do 4 fingers.

Similar boat for me. If I use 2, the levers hit my other fingers. I use the tips of 3 and my pinky rests on the top of the lever and possibly contributes in extreme situations.

I actually had to go outside to see what my hands do on the levers. I've been riding for so long that I never think about it.

[Kham]

Dave, my question is stemmed from the MSF's limitation of 4 finger braking.

MSF students can only brake with 4 fingers...that's what they teach.

that's because mostly when they're upright, before cornering, and i think the brakes on those 250 trainer aren't that good? i can use 2 or 4 when i feelt he need, zx brakes are mushee, but 1 aint good enough for sure.

[Doc]

I read the title quick and I coulda swore it said "Four finger Banging"

I need to go to bed.

[ThisBitch]

I read the title quick and I coulda swore it said "Four finger Banging"

I need to go to bed.

OR get laid... dirty man.

I should have been in bed 2 hours ago. Fucking All Star game.

[Paul_E_D]

Bergs, You should go pick up your championship trophy right away. No need to prove your skill as you already know everything you need.

Seriously, there are good reasons for the technique. On many bikes to acheive maximum braking you need to pull the lever to the bar. You simply cannot do this with some funky combo of fingers left between the bar and the grip.

Even on my GP bike, late in a race I would be pulling the lever to the bar in the heavy breaking zones. I was going through a set of brake pads in a weekend. The factory guys have adjusters on their brakes to take up this slack during a single race.

And the drum brake trainer bikes do NOT stop well with 2 finger braking.

That is all.

I'm curious as to why the Motorcycle Safety Foundation would basically limit new riders to 4 finger braking only. It just doesn't settle well with me. That alone could possibly send the message that 4 fingers is the only way to use the front brake.

This isn't a dig on Paul or Doc or any of the other MSF instructors, but why would the MSF curriculum stress 4 finger braking and then limit a rider to that method throughout the entire weekend, regardless of bike?

I'm sure those Nighthawk and Rebel 250's can stop just fine using 2 fingers so why the limitation?

Like I said, I'd fail the MSF Course because of this very subject.

So, seriously, what's the purpose of the limitation?

And to the MSF coaches, I'm curious as to what your personal belief is on this subject. I realize your job is to convey the MSF's curriculum but don't any of you think it might be time for a change?

[TheIglu]

I use two on my Rex, she's a bit on the grabby side. Gafler Greens and braided lines = tons of grippiness.

4 on the KLR and racebike. KLR could use 8 fingers if I could manage it.

[Doc]

I'm curious as to why the Motorcycle Safety Foundation would basically limit new riders to 4 finger braking only. It just doesn't settle well with me. That alone could possibly send the message that 4 fingers is the only way to use the front brake.

This isn't a dig on Paul or Doc or any of the other MSF instructors, but why would the MSF curriculum stress 4 finger braking and then limit a rider to that method throughout the entire weekend, regardless of bike?

I'm sure those Nighthawk and Rebel 250's can stop just fine using 2 fingers so why the limitation?

Like I said, I'd fail the MSF Course because of this very subject.

So, seriously, what's the purpose of the limitation?

And to the MSF coaches, I'm curious as to what your personal belief is on this subject. I realize your job is to convey the MSF's curriculum but don't any of you think it might be time for a change?

I'll try to answer.

MSF teaches you to "Cover" your levers. We stress it in the beginning (especially the clutch) to help new riders form good habits.

As far as braking... If your on the brakes you shouldn't be on the throttle when riding on the street. (per MSF) No need to have any fingers on the throttle so you can put em all on the brake lever. Racer types use 2 to better modulate the throttle.

Those Nighthawks and Rebels SUCK at braking. I squeezed the brake with 2 fingers during our "Panic" braking test and I pinched my fingers! Those brakes SUCK. I defintely used 4 the next time and did MUCH better.

[DucDave]

I'll try to answer.

MSF teaches you to "Cover" your levers. We stress it in the beginning (especially the clutch) to help new riders form good habits.

As far as braking... If your on the brakes you shouldn't be on the throttle when riding on the street. (per MSF) No need to have any fingers on the throttle so you can put em all on the brake lever. Racer types use 2 to better modulate the throttle.

Those Nighthawks and Rebels SUCK at braking. I squeezed the brake with 2 fingers during our "Panic" braking test and I pinched my fingers! Those brakes SUCK. I defintely used 4 the next time and did MUCH better.

...lowest common denominator...?

(oh...I repeat myself...)

uh...it would appear, like many things in life, that the answer is IT DEPENDS...

although it is human nature to try and build a universal truth from whatever corner case suits you, what you have really built is a universal truth for yourself under certain circumstances.

Some bikes, some set-ups, some conditions, some hand sizes, some weather conditions, some, some, some...all affect how you approach riding - including braking.

The right answer is to be consistant, smooth, and appropriate for all of the above. So, sometimes 1, 2, 3, or even 4 fingers is the right answer...

And if you all continue to kick this dead horse you'll be no closer to the truth...
__________________

and I repeat myself again. cus its worth it...

[Paul_E_D]

btw, Bergs, there are no points deducted for 2 finger braking. Only deductions are for not using both brakes.

These MSF methods are for habit development in new riders and lazy experienced riders. I've trained a LOT of people, and I can tell you that maybe 1 percent can use the front brake fully when they arrive at the class. People just don't pull hard enough on the level. The technique is designed to help people get the most out of their braking.

It works. People brake much harder after giving up on their 1 or 2 finger habits. Why argue with a proven instructional technique?

It's clear that a skilled rider can use different techniques than the ones MSF recommends, but you certainly can't LOSE any performance using MSF techniques. Our goal is to help people avoid a hazard by stopping quickly. Our technique has proven to work. What's your problem with that?

[Woodsy]

2 all the time. just feels natural. you come off the throttle and on the brake all in one motion.

[Doc]

His problem is then he is not RIGHT.

[Kham]

As far as braking... If your on the brakes you shouldn't be on the throttle when riding on the street.
.

but but how are u suppose to do burnout?