hydrogen bike

[neuthunder]

the british env?
http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/15.01/play.html?pg=5

[Awesome]

Sounds and looks like it would make a pretty cool duel sport.

[FastJohnny]

Interesting.. I wouldn't take one on the street with a top speed of only 50, and it looks kinda weak to go offroad with those little spokes and tiny brakes. The only thing cool about it is how it makes its power.

[Tricky Mike]

Kind of cool, but they obviously hav a long way to go.

Hybrid cars on the other hand keep getting cooler and cooler:

Toyota FT-HS
400HP hybrid.

Sorry for the monster image:

[Awesome]

Mike just stole the thread-thunder. That car is sick.

[OreoGaborio]

Originally posted by hessogood
Mike just stole the thread-thunder. That car is sick.

That thing's nasty.

The bike's got potential... and the most adorable little front brakes i've ever seen on a "motorcycle". They're smaller than most downhill mountainbikes.

[mmracer37]

I like american muscle, but that thing is MEAN!!!!

[Billy]

Holy shit. That is one hot car.

[Rick Lee]

It may look cool and i bet it's fun to drive but there's something to be said about stepping on the gas and hearing and feeling the power. Over all it cool though. Just my .02

[benVFR]

Originally posted by OreoGitorio


That thing's nasty.

The bike's got potential... and the most adorable little front brakes i've ever seen on a "motorcycle". They're smaller than most downhill mountainbikes.

Probably cause it's not a downhill bike? 6" Hydraulics on a mountain bike with a single-piston monoblock caliper are seriously powerful. Probably better then the brakes on most scooters and mopeds and enough for this thing. When you don't have to design for 500+ lbs and 150mph there's no need for huge discs cause you don't build up that much heat.

But I can see where you start thinking about it as a downhill machine. For some reason every alternative fuel bike designer is smoking the same crack and thinks they should style their bike after a downhill MTB or a dirtbike even though it's only engineered for the road. In the process they kill half the efficiency and elegance of the design.

Kill the suspension, kill all the plastic, kill the oversized knobbies, beef up the wheels a little more, chop everything off that isn't needed, etc.. and they'd have the beginning of a good new type of bike. Heck they could probably chop another 40lbs off it which would help acceleration & efficiency.

The car looks sick but that's the one that is curiously missing appropriate brakes. It probably has the ability to use the electric motor as a brake though.. which negates the need for huge brakes at the wheels.

[Honclfibr]

Ok, there seems to be a bit of confusion on what exactly this bike is. It's a hydrogen fuel cell bike. And while I am not a hydrogen fuel cell engineer, I did stay at a Holiday Express last night. I also happen to be contracted to a client which is building fuel cells for military and commercial applications. So I know a (very little) bit about the technology. Soo...

First off, hydrogen fuel cell != hydrogen IC engine. A hydrogen IC engine would attempt to burn hydrogen and convert it into mechanical energy much in the way a gasoline-IC engine converts gasoline into mechanical energy. This is not a hydrogen IC engine.

Also hydrogen vehicle != hybrid vehicle. A hybrid vehicle is a vehicle which contains a gasoline-IC engine as well as an alternative energy source. In the case of current production hybrids, the alternative energy source is a standard lead-acid battery coupled with an electric motor. The batteries are charged via the alternator current from the IC-engine output as well as various other sources such as regenerative braking. They don't include hydrogen fuel cell technology as hydrogen fuel cells convert hydrogen to electricity and are not rechargeable.

So what is a fuel cell? A fuel cell is a device which converts a chemical process to elecricity. In the context of a hydrogen fuell cell, it converts hydrogen and oxygen into electricity plus a byproduct, water.

The advantage of a hydrogen fuel cell is that it produces electrical energy with a byproduct that is harmless, water. Given a ready source of hydrogen (and oxygen, but oxygen is fairly easy to come by) hydrogen fuel cells could provide power to the same range of devices wich today are provided by conventional electricity, be that your household lamps and refridgerators or a car propelled by an electric motor.

The dilemma facing hydrogen fuel cells technology today is the fact that hydrogen is a relatively rare commodity on planet earth. It can readily and easily be produced by electrolysis, but the problem is that the (electrical) energy required to produce hydrogen via electrolysis is approximatley 2x the amount of electricity produced by the hydrogen fuel cell that the hydrogen is fed into.

Currently, the only efficient means of producing hydrogen fuel to power a fuel cell is by chemical reaction. Various chemical reactions which produce hydrogen via this process have been proposed, but the downside is that production of hydrogen in this manner requires a chemical fuel which is steadily depleted in the production of hydrogen. Given this, they end up looking a lot like traditional IC engines which are capable of producing either electricity (generator) or mechanical energy (motor), with the additional downside that current processes for reforming chemicals into hydrogen into electricity are either not as efficient as a standard petrol generator and/or require chemicals which are not as readily sourced and refined as coal/oil/gasoline.

Currently, the only advantage of fuel cell technology is that hydrogen fuel cells can be produced which are much more compact and lighter than their IC generator counterparts, while providing a power density greater than that offered by conventional rechargeable batteries. Therefore, they find their niche in areas where power/weight ratios are an issue but where ready supplies of hydrogen fuel sources can be provided. Right now, this means man-portable electrical sources where a source of hydrogen fuel can be provided (mostly military and select commercial applications) and silly little concept bikes where power/weight is infinitely more important than providing a ready and economical source of fuel.

Enter the hydrogen fuel cell concept dirtbike. Providing an attractive power/weight ratio and source of nearly limitless torque (electric motor), so long as you accept that the fuel required to power such a vehicle is difficult to obtain and (currently) much more expensive than that of conventional fossil fuel power plant. Suffice it to say, joe dirtbike rider is not going to be buying one of these any time soon. But they are nifty, for their potential as fossil-fuel alternative power plants if nothing else.

[joeswamp]

What a great summary...

Currently, the only advantage of fuel cell technology is that hydrogen fuel cells can be produced which are much more compact and lighter than their IC generator counterparts, while providing a power density greater than that offered by conventional rechargeable batteries.

Don't forget that fuel cells also have really high efficiencies, better than any combustion engine (even the idealized ones that can only exist on paper). Heat engine efficiency is limited by the hottest and coldest temperture in the cycle. Since fuel cells convert chemical energy directly into electricity (avoiding the intermediate conversion to heat and then mechanical energy), you can get a _lot_ more miles per gallon.

Hydrogen is currently quite expensive to produce. I'm pretty sure the subscribers to the hydrogen religion all believe that some breakthrough will shortly come through -- like you'll soon be able to easily generate it by throwing some kind of wonder bacteria into a sewage treatment plant or landfill or something. Guess we'll have to wait and see...

[Punjistick]

What about Iceland. I thought that they could produce hydrogen for pretty cheap because of all of the geothermal vents.

Couldn't hygrogen be produced next to a nuclear power plant? Use some of the electricity generated by that.

Or even what about hydroelectric dams.

I also saw a thing on TV where a guy is in the process of making a new kind of solar panel that is way more efficient that current kinds. With today's colar panels if it developes a hole then it is pretty much useless. But this guy has made it so you can drill as many as you like and it still works. You could put huge arrays in the desert somewhere and use them to store electricity for the making of hydrogen.

I'm sure there are many ways to make is cost effective. We just like our petroleum and coal so much.

[joeswamp]

Not sure about the Iceland idea, but if you're generating hydrogen with electricity from a power plant or solar cells you might be better off just distributing the electricity and letting people use it to charge batteries. I'm pretty sure the hydrogen economy sort of only makes sense if you can figure out a way to make the hydrogen super cheap, ie not making it with nuclear power or coal.

Don't forget that hydrogen is pretty inconvenient to deal with, you have to store it in crazy high pressure tanks (i.e. potential bombs), and the molecule is super tiny so it's really hard to store it anywhere for lengths of time without it eventually leaking out. That's one of the reasons that hydrogen (the gas) is almost nowhere to be found on this planet, it all leaked out. Of course hydrogen the element is everywhere.

I believe lots of folks are trying to make fuel cells that run on other stuff (like for instance methanol), so you could get the super high efficiency without the nightmare of generating and storing hydrogen.

[Punjistick]

"A decade ago, Stan invented the nickel metal hydride rechargeable battery used today in everything from computers to the Toyota Prius. Today, he and Iris show Alan an example of their new hydrogen storage device, a proprietary metal alloy that soaks up hydrogen gas like a sponge. They claim that the solid can store twice as much hydrogen as a typical high-pressure tank. In addition, hydrogen as a solid is more stable than gas or liquid."

It still doesn't solve the problem of where to get the hydrogen cheap enough but it's one step closer.

I think more and more auto manufacturers are looking into hydrogen fuel cells and using hydrogen in other ways. Ford is trying out a hydrogen/electric hybrid on its Focus.

And BMW created the 745h which consists of a hygrogen fuel cell independent of a gasoline engine. Between the two fuel tanks it can go 600 miles between fill ups. Now all they have to do is ditch the gas engine and throw in a version of Mercedes' clean-diesel engine.

[joeswamp]

Originally posted by Punjistick
"A decade ago, Stan invented the nickel metal hydride rechargeable battery used today in everything from computers to the Toyota Prius. Today, he and Iris show Alan an example of their new hydrogen storage device, a proprietary metal alloy that soaks up hydrogen gas like a sponge. They claim that the solid can store twice as much hydrogen as a typical high-pressure tank. In addition, hydrogen as a solid is more stable than gas or liquid."

It still doesn't solve the problem of where to get the hydrogen cheap enough but it's one step closer.

Yep I forgot about that, I think lots of folks are working on solid hydrogen storage mediums. Problem with these is that a) the current ones are really heavy and b) it takes a bunch of energy to get the hydrogen in and out. Probably worth the tradeoff though when you compare the stable solid to the exploding tank.

I agree with you this is one step closer but we've still got a ways to go. I do hope they solve these problems before the icecaps melt and my neighborhood floods out.

[Dichotomous]

those ARE mtn bike brakes, magura I belive, 4 piston each caliper, they grab quite well. and its got, mtn bike wheels, and mtn bike suspension... cause, its basically an electric mtn bike with a hydrogen fuel cell as the battery. nothing new except instead of a regular battery like E-bike uses, they use a fuel cell, which will give it more power.
I cant see how they got it up to almost 200lbs though.... those wheels and tires dont weigh much (look a whole lot like the ones on my bike) and its aluminum frame, the swingarm is hollow, so it must be that the fuel cell and motor take up about 100lbs together, I'll give electronics and blinks and such 10lbs.... but how they got it that heavy I dont know

I would argue that the line in the article saying it accelerates hard, its got frigeen mtn bike knobbys.... I can spin those with my legs!

[Punjistick]

That car is really awesome looking. I normally hate the color white on anything but it looks pretty good with that car. I especially like the headlights and wheels.